Age of Conan Editorial: The Rules of Engagement

I quite enjoy PvP, myself, but without any rules to speak of set in place, basically what you've got is a breeding ground for gankers, "griefers", and spawn campers:

"Rules need to be established, and mechanics need to be implemented in order for things to be 'fair game' for all players."

This fortnight, we take a look at how Funcom can take the steps in encouraging fun and mature PvP on their PvP and RPvP servers.

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Okay

I get your points, but the problem is ppl like you who feel this way and express it to no end always look at one side. Okay so a lvl 80 kills a lvl 20 (once not a big deal, twice annoying, camping pointless.) in Open FFA pvp you are self policing yourself. What stop the ganking all your guildmates do. Open FFA brings guilds together more. Servers always separate into 2 faction (even though there are no defined factions) PKERS (ppl who kill anyone on site for the fun of it) and Anti's (These are ppl who like to help knew ppl and have truce/alliances with other anti guilds to kill all the PK's)

Setting up a set bunch of rules like 90% of mmo games have, have really bubbled all these new gamers. Self policing is best and you say what if it doesn't happen any game with OPEN pvp has PK's and Anti's. Ppl who want to gank/grief kill first think later. And ppl like you who write this article fight these ppl for the right of the low lvls and give them a chance because it's fair. It's these 2 mentalities that allow FFA open pvp to work so well. Then guilds have alliances and there politics ppl see guilds a criminals and murders and see others as defenders of good and all that. You get to make your own history and not follow set rules and be stuck within the boundaries of a programmer mindset that maybe was ganked to many times.

Example: Asheron's call (darktide) there were PK's (blood guild) and Anti's (everyone else) and then some new guilds. The anti's were alliance between 2-3 guilds that agreed to help low lvls and kill all blood on sight. Then there was dominate blood guild that had lvl req and didn't care for low lvls and just wanted to destroy everything. Politics in sue ppl morale drop in some anti's and they switch to blood and really hinders the anti's because he coulda took items with him if he was a higher up. Then some blood see what they were doing is just wrong and sick of it so they switch over to anti's.

MMO games are about the massive amount of players.. So you ask who stops the ganking the griefers YOU DO and thats how it should be.. the game is for the players to do as they wish you will find there are alot of players like you that want to stand up to the evil and the server will be fine.. low lvl's will lvl because higher lvls will protect them. WHY? because it's right and because then they become another high lvl that in the fight against the evil PKs

A boundary will be drawn and it will be up to you what side to fight on.

but at least in this world the boundary is set by the players not a coder, and anything set by players can change as we see fit and it morphs all the time because with humans there no right and wrong there only shades of gray. anything set by programmer is stuck that way and it's either One side or the Other there is no shade of gray.

So you decide what is better?

EDIT - if you want rules play on the PVE servers which only allows pvp in Broder kingdom. why try to take away from the PVP servers when what you want already exists.

Safe zones fail.
Levels fail.
Anything but open PvP with self policing fails.
'Nuff said

Unahim:
Safe zones fail.
Levels fail.
Anything but open PvP with self policing fails.
'Nuff said

Okay, and why?

As WallyMartin said, if you can't handle the PVP FFA heat, then play on a PVE server. I rather enjoy the feeling of knowing that I can get ganked or go out and gank as I see fit. Even if I get ganked at a lower level, that simply encourages me to level faster and later get my revenge. But as for grieving the lower levels by camping and what not, meh, when someone joins a PVP server they should know that this might happen. When it happens to me, I simply log off, and come back when the camper has gotten bored. Or if I happen to have some high leveled friends, I call on them for some help. Either way, its things like these that make PVP servers even more fun. If you want rule-based PVP, then join a PVE server.

Sabrac:
If you want rule-based PVP, then join a PVE server.

No offense, but this is a weak, cop-out suggestion. PvP for what it is, is not ganking, spawn-camping, killing the same opponent over and over again just to piss them off, etc., etc. I'm a keen PvPer, myself, and these things do not equate to my own level of personal enjoyment when playing on PvP servers in different MMORPGs. I've been gaming for a long time, and I attribute my PvP experiences to games such as Ultima Online and Diablo I and II on Battle.net.

The intention behind my editorial this fortnight was to point out that "lawlessness" - a PvP server with few or no rules to speak of - even on a FFAPvP server in fudamentally flawed by concept and does not give every player a true sense of "freedom" that I'm sure they desire when first creating a character on a PvP server.

I understand the rules I suggested in the editorial are flawed; I even said this myself in the editorial; but these suggestions were made with the intention of allowing readers to see that inherently, the concept of "FFAPvP" does not allow for genuine players enjoyment, not unless you're a player that thinks that ganking, spawn camping, and killing the same opponent over and over again just to piss them off, is fun. No, not all PvPers do this, but when you give them the freedom to, i.e. few or no PvP rules, this sort of behaviour self-breeds. Unfortunately, a PvP player-base is somewhat of incapable of policing themselves too, so putting the honus on them is futile.

To maximise player enjoyment and to allow newcomers to PvP on PvP servers, rules need to be in place. I do concede, however, that rule sets should differ from a PvP to an RPvP server, especially for Age of Conan, but this is not to suggest that RPvP servers would be the "carebear" PvP servers of the game. In my own experiences, I've found PvPers on role-playing PvP servers to be the better gamers and PvPers; there's the maturity factor, first of all, and still the high level of competition between warring guilds, but without ganking, spawn camping, and general impudence that you might find on PvP servers.

I have thought long and hard on this issue, and I don't think rules are the way to police PvP. As others have mentioned, PvPers like to police their own. A system that facilitated self policing would be more useful in my opinion.

Such a system that might be something like a "kill counter". This is simply a number that any player can access about your character. I must emphasize in this example the number is nothing more than a number. It's not associated with any reward/punishment system of any kind.

In works in such a way that when you kill someone in your own level bracket, you get 1 legitimate kill added to your tally. Every time you kill someone in a manner that is questionable, you get a 1 questionable kill added to a separate tally.

This would allow people in large communities to be able to identify people who pick on low level characters on a regular basis. It would also allow high level characters to help low level characters without punishment. Who is going to care about 100 questionable kills when you have 4000 legitimate ones? There is also a certain amount of shame, as there should be, when your kill count reads 100 legitimate kills and 4000 questionable kills.

I am sure many other people could think of better ways to facilitate policing, I just thought I'd throw that in as an example.

And as far as stricter rule sets for RP-PvP - I would have thought that the RP community would be more likely to police their own, and more willing. Some people like to play the bad guy, and others like to play the hero. A player with a high amount of questionable kills on a RP-PvP server would most likely find themselves alienated. I doubt many RPer's would like to go questing with a "murderer".

Too many rules and restriction placed on pvp in mmo's kill the fun and the flow of the game. One of the best pvp games I ever played was shadowbane. It was very exciting to know anywhere at any time something could go down. Things worked there way out. Eventually any FFA pvp server will be a guild server. People form guilds and alliances, they work out their own rules.

If you throw down a bunch of rules, like you sugguested then your gonna get the level 29 guys in uber pvp gear ganking newbies and all your level 50 guild mate wont be able to help you. It's frustrating and u spend a lot time posturing and yelling.

If you let players fix things then when said ganker kills the wrong guy, suddenly he's getting chain kill every time he respawns 5-10 times or til he logs for the night.

If you want to pvp in a ruled and safe enviroment then AoC PVE servers are for you. They still have the instant pvp 4vs4 mini games and they have the big guild sieges. You will also have to put up with the kill stealers and the Korean farmers and every other irritating jerk.

kharakar:
If you want to pvp in a ruled and safe enviroment then AoC PVE servers are for you. They still have the instant pvp 4vs4 mini games and they have the big guild sieges. You will also have to put up with the kill stealers and the Korean farmers and every other irritating jerk.

Refer to post number 6.

Hey again,

I see my post unlike others have been ignored by Weezer possibly due to the fact that my post explains why and how FFAPVP servers work.

You say ppl get gank'd but there a lot less ganking when you self police without it being annoying to the player. As i said most server split into PK's (ppl who like to kill) and Anti (ppl who think ganking low lvls are wrong). Most PK's don't even care for low lvls and will just kill them as they run by. Honestly most Ganking i find occurs in games such as WOW where there are so many rules, the only way you can annoy someone is by ganking. Most FFA server thats not a huge issue because there better stuff to be doing. In Wow there simply isn't.

As i was saying tough, if you get ganked in FFA and anti see it usually come over kill the PK or call the friends to kill them. You just need to get into a guild and ppl will want to help you lvl because there a reason to lvl you, you become a solider. In wow there not a huge reason to help low lvls.... oh yeah we can get you in a raid we already have 10 lvl 70 rogues but lets try to lvl another one. In FFA it's okay we now have 11 rogues thats 11 assains you can never have enough.

The mindsets of the worlds are completely different if you look at how game like WOW works then apply FFA it seems like there is no way it could work. But FFA mindsets are different the players "HATE" other guilds and if there guild getting picked on they step up. Literally becomes Gang mentality, you attack one of us you attack us all. If one gang becomes to powerful usually multiple gangs will stand up to them.

You can't look at WOW then say wow mad gank fest this FFA stuff wouldn't work because it's a completely different mindset. FFA works on darktide hands down, In that game guilds try to claim a dungeon like Othloi west (it's a dungeon) is owned by my guild so low lvls whoever can go there and lvl if it gets raided by another guild we all show up and kick them out.

FFA works
Ppl are looking at FFA servers as if they put one in WOW. In wow no one cares about low lvls because just someone else going to need to be babied and take there item drops. FFA you see them as another solider you can use to kill your rivals. This is why FFA works this is how poltics enter FFA servers and thats why FFA server games have been around for 10 years.

You should really ask for the rules that you are interested in for the PVE servers instead of typing a 4 page article whining about how PvP servers should be like this. In World of Warcraft, the PVE servers have the option where a player can Enable PvP for himself and then you can find someone else who is also willing to fight you (LOL) this seems like the kind of thing for you.

The following is an explanation for the author of the article concerning rediculous limitations imposed so players can pvp a equal lvl opponent.

The idea of reducing someone to the lvl of a zone they enter is absurd even if temporarily and goes too far in making 'PvP' balanced. People lvl up to high lvls to become more powerful, wear mighty items and use those to go have revenge on NPCs and PCs who may or may not have greifed them in the past in one way or another.

You said you had your PvP experance from some online game I never heard about and Diablo and Diablo II, would you have liked it if, lets say you manged to get to the end of nightmare mode (in Diablo II) and around lvl 65 by grouping with other people and find that you need to farm for new gear in Nightmare mode before advancing to Hell mode where your gear would be insignificant due to higher lvls? You decide that you want to go and farm the Act One boss for gear but guess what, the monsters around there are lvl 40s. Does it then seem fair to have your character reduced to being a lvl 40 again and probably having to keep a separate set of lvl approprate gear since you couldnt use a few lvl 50ish items you managed to find?

If you want an even fight and not to have to deal with higher lvls occaisonally doing a drive by killing on you (im so looking forward to it) and your boring even teams arenas please go to a PVE server where you can be nice and safe lvling in peace and leave our PVP sever rules alone.

We real PvP server people, in addition to the usual even lvl battles that are what you find tons of at max lvl, like to indulge in hunting lower lvls in the form of occaisonal drive bys and slaughter fests in lower lvl zones. (and then leave before someone logs their max lvl, highly geared character on and starts trying to kill us.)

Now I will say it as clear as possable: If you can't take the sense of danger of the rare death by higher lvl players that is found on PvP servers, they made the PVE sever for you and your less pvp inclined cousins.

Rottin:
Now I will say it as clear as possable: If you can't take the sense of danger of the rare death by higher lvl players that is found on PvP servers, they made the PVE sever for you and your less pvp inclined cousins.

Refer to post number 6.

I find it humorous that, out of most of the posters here I'm pointing out how FFA servers work since i played on a most all of them. Said it once say it again, FFA server split into PK'ers and Anti.

PKER - someone who kills first talks later and usually guild hates everyone kills on sight.

Anti - someone who hates PK's because they just kill kill kill, and usually have a stronger pvp grp. Anti usually help low lvls not get ganked and are more friendly also usually have alliances with other guilds to give them numbers advance over the PK's

This is what happens. i guess it's FFA world of GOOD and EVIL (if there was one).

So in FFA .. PK are the murder's killers and ANTI try to police it minimize and help. In the end though ANTI kill PK guilds on sight so really almost no difference between them but these are how the lines are drawn.

So your lvl 20 will probably have lvl 70's with him, probably by a guild saying lvl in this area and we can help you easier etc. guild usually have territory they they consider theres and they try to control maybe best mobs to grind, maybe good resource there, maybe nice low lvl lvling spot. So if another guild comes into there area they try to kick them out and nice guild vs guild battle will insue. (hence why i compared it to gangs in a previous post) this is how Ulitmate went and asheron's call (probably 2 greatest mmo's created to this date). since they still exist 10 years later with dedicated players. I only quit AC like 3-4 months ago because I got sick of Turbine not coming through with promises.

So in this FFA server towns are safe (which is a luxuray AC they weren't u use to have ur guild go with you to sell stuff because you dropped up to 14 items on death and you hoped it wasn't the armor you were wearing and your death items covered it).

Then first 20 lvls you are safe, this game also partially skill based dodge/running away climbing seem to be ways to get safe from danger. Then top that off.. one guild won't like another guild killing there soldiers and you can talk to them as well. not like WOW and really hate brews between guilds. In WOW i don't think i can name 1 horde guild that i have killed. t no anger no hate nothing.. This will have hate, anger, and desire to kill the guild that touches your guild member.

You can not compare FFA PVP to PVP server with super imposed rules from different games because the politics and hate is not there, no talking/taunting no telling them HEY WEEZER stay our of this area this is WALLY territory. Once you get hate u get a drive that different then OMG horde camping me and i can't talk to him or anything and no one cares because there no real deserve gain to stop him. Most time FFA server ppl are looking for fights, so if someone get killed and you show up etc then a fight insue then he calls his guild u call ur guild and fight gets bigger then there ton of trashing talking etc.. and you go on your merry way after a winner is decided.

FFA PVP is different then 75-80% of mmo out because it just doesn't exist anymore. Glad to see it being implemented even if there still some rules.

WallyMartin:
I find it humorous that, out of most of the posters here I'm pointing out how FFA servers work since i played on a most all of them. Said it once say it again, FFA server split into PK'ers and Anti.

PKER - someone who kills first talks later and usually guild hates everyone kills on sight.

Anti - someone who hates PK's because they just kill kill kill, and usually have a stronger pvp grp. Anti usually help low lvls not get ganked and are more friendly also usually have alliances with other guilds to give them numbers advance over the PK's

This is what happens. i guess it's FFA world of GOOD and EVIL (if there was one).

So in FFA .. PK are the murder's killers and ANTI try to police it minimize and help. In the end though ANTI kill PK guilds on sight so really almost no difference between them but these are how the lines are drawn.

So your lvl 20 will probably have lvl 70's with him, probably by a guild saying lvl in this area and we can help you easier etc. guild usually have territory they they consider theres and they try to control maybe best mobs to grind, maybe good resource there, maybe nice low lvl lvling spot. So if another guild comes into there area they try to kick them out and nice guild vs guild battle will insue. (hence why i compared it to gangs in a previous post) this is how Ulitmate went and asheron's call (probably 2 greatest mmo's created to this date). since they still exist 10 years later with dedicated players. I only quit AC like 3-4 months ago because I got sick of Turbine not coming through with promises.

So in this FFA server towns are safe (which is a luxuray AC they weren't u use to have ur guild go with you to sell stuff because you dropped up to 14 items on death and you hoped it wasn't the armor you were wearing and your death items covered it).

Then first 20 lvls you are safe, this game also partially skill based dodge/running away climbing seem to be ways to get safe from danger. Then top that off.. one guild won't like another guild killing there soldiers and you can talk to them as well. not like WOW and really hate brews between guilds. In WOW i don't think i can name 1 horde guild that i have killed. t no anger no hate nothing.. This will have hate, anger, and desire to kill the guild that touches your guild member.

You can not compare FFA PVP to PVP server with super imposed rules from different games because the politics and hate is not there, no talking/taunting no telling them HEY WEEZER stay our of this area this is WALLY territory. Once you get hate u get a drive that different then OMG horde camping me and i can't talk to him or anything and no one cares because there no real deserve gain to stop him. Most time FFA server ppl are looking for fights, so if someone get killed and you show up etc then a fight insue then he calls his guild u call ur guild and fight gets bigger then there ton of trashing talking etc.. and you go on your merry way after a winner is decided.

FFA PVP is different then 75-80% of mmo out because it just doesn't exist anymore. Glad to see it being implemented even if there still some rules.

Thanks for your insight, Wally, very interesting indeed.

PvE gets too predictable, and PvP just doesn't work if you start introducing levels, zones, self policing (whatever that is). Instead just create an open system where you can attack anyone with the following result. All PvP takes place at the same lvl, with appropriate modifiers for equipment, surprise, ground etc. If a lvl 80 attacks a lvl 20 they both take and give damage like a lvl 80, the level 80 would have a greater variety of attacks and better equipment which could slightly give him the edge, but both would take and give damage in PvP like level 80 characters and thus the level 20 could win. If two or more level 80's attack one level 20 adjust all the damage to where it is an interesting and challenging fight for both sides. The idea is for everyone to have fun, so when any combat PvP takes place, both sides should have somekind of chance. Eliminate ganking, and camping, etc. not by creating artificial rules, zones and level restrictions--just don't make it possible.

The key to answering questions about "Rules of engagement" is to keep it consistant with the theme of the game world. If your game world is a bright, social-oriented, place you need strict "carebear" rules to keep things happy. AoC is a dark, low-fantasy, world with an emphasis on mature themes (and players) and a more "realistic" feel. To that end, we need rules of engagement that reflect realistic limitations.
Have you ever seen a blackbelt get knocked down by a whitebelt? I have. It happens all the time. Beginners are dangerous precisely because they are stupid. They do dumb things a mature warrior would never consider ("You let go of your sword?!). Nine times out of ten those things get them killed quicker, but that tenth time leaves the stunned blackbelt wondering what the HELL just happened? Since gankers say they like the "sense of danger" let's add a realistic sense of danger for them too.

Adrenal Rush Rule: When a player attacks a player significantly below them, that player isn't real scared but the victim IS; He is facing the mighty warrior "Noobganker"! To reflect this: If a player is attacked by a player 6-10 levels above him he gains a 5% critical hit chance. For 11+ levels that rises to a 10% chance. A critical hit is essentially a free kill. Thus one time in ten a 10th level noob will kill his 80th level ganker. Don't tell me it aint "realistic"; level systems that make people invulnerable are unrealistic. In the brutal world of Hyboria, death is always hovering near. Let's see if the gankers still like the "sense of uncertainty and danger" when it applies to them too. Most gankers only want you to be afraid. They want to be invulnerable.

Respect and Disdain: Most MMORPGs have a reward system for "honorable" kills. This fits well with Conan's universe. The warrior who challenges and defeats many equally famous warriors gains respect. If he fights with chivalry, he gains honor. If he rips his foes heads off and drinks the blood fountaining from their necks, he is feared. Either way; he is respected. Nobody respects a childslayer.
As such you should gain "Honorable kills" for defeating warriors near your level. You should gain nothing from a ganking - you were expected to win. And you should Lose kills for being defeated by someone 6+ levels below you. Even though it wasn't your fault ("He turned away to do a back kick! Nobody with the brains of a chicken turns his back on an armed foe! Of course I thought he was running away. It was just luck!") . You will still be treated with derision for losing. "Chicken or not, he had brains enough to beat you. How does it feel to be dumber than a chicken? Har har!"
This is totally realistic: Blackbelts don't like to fight beginners. They gain nothing for winning and lose respect for losing. And ANYONE can lose. Feel free to gank. Nobody is stopping you. But the effects are what they are.

Of course these rules address "ganking", but what of the annoying twits who hover around to jump you while you are fighting mobs? Again, let's turn the idea around and look at it from another angle. Assume you are an inteligent monster fighting an equal level player. You are both at 3/4 hit points. Now an attacker jumps your player. What do you do? If you continue to attack the same target you will help the attacker kill him while he takes little loss. After the fight, you are facing the attacker at 3/4 HP to your 3/4 HP. You gain nothing. But, if you switch targets to the attacker you will help your player defeat him at the cost of taking serious damage. Then you are left facing your player who is at 1/4 HP to your 3/4 HP. Which gives you a better chance of winning?
In point of fact it is always better for the two wounded enemies to jump on the unwounded one. Always. Whether you are monsters or countries at war, this is a strategic imperative. Of course critters in Conan may not all be tactical geniuses, so the following rule:

Hey! That's MY dinner! When a player engaged by a mob is attacked, the mob has a 50% chance of switching targets to the attacker. Again, this provides a perfectly realistic danger to the ganker. Note that in the recent tiger attack at the zoo, it wasn't the ass who "aggroed" the tiger who got killed, it was the brother who tried to save him. Even critters don't obey cookie cutter agro rules. You jump in the middle of a fight, you take your chances.

The last point involves looting. I have no idea whether looting of player bodies will be allowed. If it is, most games have limits protecting what can be looted. For gankers those limits would be restrictive, but for victims who win they would be much looser. This isn't realistic, but most games have it as a balance feature. It hurts a 20th level if he gets ganked and loses his best weapon - it's not easily replaceable. As such, it won't be lootable. The 80th level can replace normal stuff easily, so he will be free game to the victim. If you go out ganking noobs, don't take the sword of Amon-Ra; buy a cheap broadsword. You never know, some twitterpate might get a lucky dagger in your eye, and the broadsword is easier to replace.

The beauty of these rules is that they don't force anything, they just provide natural consequences of your actions. Karma on steroids. If I seek out honorable combats and you gank noobs, you can call me an "Arrtard" all you want. I will have 400 honor kills and the shopkeeper and whores will call me "Slayer Arrtard" and give me discounts (I would sell haga to a Slayer such as you?) You will have a -14 honor kills because sometimes the noobs get lucky, and the whores will laugh at you and call you "Defiler-of-virgin-chickens Noobslayer".

Sounds fair to me.

Rules, and safe zones, and level restrictions ruin the whole idea of PvP. PvP ettique needs to be enforced by players only.

What would Conan say if you told him that he couldn't mow down people who are weaker than him?

diabolicsavior:
What would Conan say if you told him that he couldn't mow down people who are weaker than him?

Conan didn't play video games.

Conan DIDN'T mow down people weaker than him. I've read the books: Conan did not gank. He did reaver at times, however, and may have played highway man on an occasion. Such is life in Hyboria.

The major attraction of FFA PVP servers is the player freedom - adding rules and restrictions has completely the opposite effect, & will likely only scare away the people who would be attracted to this ruleset in the first place. I think the people who want restrictions like the ones you mentioned, wouldn't even be considering the FFA PVP servers to begin with, & will be quite happy with the PVP on offer on the standard rulesets.

What I would personally like to see is a FFA ruleset with NO restrictions AND a form of ITEM looting... so at least us old AC/UO/EVE vet's aren't left out in the cold...yet AGAIN.

And WallyMartin is right on with his comments here. AC1 had no restrictions as well as a 'harsh' risk/reward system...the result? A community that policed itself, and a PVP experience so full of adrenaline & intensity that for many it's still unmatched today, 10 years on.

And to be honest, it's not the FFA part that equates to ganking and griefing, as most people who have played on BOTH team & FFA servers will tell you that team server's are generally far worse. On team server it's red = dead, you have clear defined enemies and friends, and need no reason to attack others, as it's simply a matter of "he's on the other team".

FFA it's completely different, and usually boils down to guild politics and alliances or the anti vs PK mindset. There's usually quite a lot of thought before attacking anyone (unless your an RPK), and the resulting consequences can be quite severe (guild kos lists, guild expulsion, crafting DNS lists etc).

I also believe that MMO's with next to no risk (or death penalty) simply encourage more griefing and corpse camping, as people see it as the only way to a) have a negative impact on the enemy or b) stop him from running back and attacking you 30 seconds later when your fighting a mob.

Case in point: WOW's world PVP had the worst community as well as the most griefing, ganking and corpse camping I have EVER seen, and that was a TEAM PVP game with plenty of restrictions and next to no risk / reward. And that was before the honor grind...