! | |
In my defense, I also noted in the short piece that I am not an MMORPG kind of guy. My wife (Kalia) IS, and I generally give her a hard time about those games, calling them her current "suit of armor" games. Being more in tune with mindless (aka DOING, rather than READING) games like Unreal Tournament, or simple games, such as Diablo/Diablo 2, which don't require reading for a half-hour before you play, I probably DO run through instructions pretty quickly, so I'll acknowledge your point. HOWEVER, the verbal and printed scrolling instructions as you learn never talk about how to locate the primary object of your current mission, and I beg to differ on the one asteroid thing -- there are all sorts of asteroids floating around there, although smaller. I probably missed the Admiral's office out of my tendency to look at the trees rather than the forest, but that doesn't explain why, with all those other orange dots on the map, labeled with various character names, the one name you need ain't there. Perhaps you have to find that person before it shows up? So, granted, things that are obvious to some people may not be so obvious to others, particularly when they avoid certain game genres like the plague. The subject of the game is what garnered my interest, DESPITE the genre. Those of you who have played MMORPGs for years, just bear with me. Thanks | |
1Pen1: What happened to your post? You had a very valid point, IMO. PUT IT BACK! :) And, for what it's worth, Welcome to the WC Forums! :) | |
I removed the post due to the NDA Cryptic states. I am not sure if I was breaking it due to descriptions of the game I used in the post. My point was that the article can be a bit mis-leading. There are many situations of directions not being to detailed in any MMO. The ones used in this article, are not good examples of them. | |
The difficulties that Herp ran into during the Beta of STO is very typical of the genre, from what I have seen. Even during shortly after launch that seems to be the single largest complaint amongst gamers on MMO's: navigation problems. Either the controls are too touchy, seem counter-intuitive, or finding who or where they are supposed to be seems impossible. Hopefully, they will get the major kinks worked out soon, considering this game is supposed to launch in little over a month. If not, it may become a major hurdle that is going to be an impediment to it's success. Like Herp, was a kid when TOS originally hit the air. I am hoping that this is THE game that I have been waiting 40+ years for. Breygon | |
Star Trek online is too much PvE, perhaps? | |
Ok let me be honest here, I do not appreciate Reviews, Previews of MMORPG's by non MMORPG players. Even if this industry is obsessed with its own growth (which industry isn't anyways right?), the problem I have however is that a non MMORPG player will make comments that are not relevant in an MMORPG as much as in a Solo game. The point is that, the MMORPG is also about immersing one's self in to a shared environment with other players, and not only playing the game from a single minded viewpoint as we do with a solo game. As such, if there is no "bliping" lights showing you where to find the next NPC, use the nature of what the MMORPG is (a simili-RL environment) and ask around, as you would in a Real Life Situation. If you are hired in any job, you would not expect them to take you by the hand and show you around every single corner of the building now would you? Or ask questions to you co-workers in your stead. You would have to be a bit intuitive...and ask questions to find locations or people you need to communicate with. So why are we expecting an MMORPG to have so unintuitive facilities, and take us by the hand? Worst case, the game could support asking an NPC standing by a door, yet usually, this is something that is done by asking other players, and it is how we want it, how it is supposed to be. An MMORPG is about playing a game with other people not only playing a game at the same time as or amongst other people, because we can olways do that in any other solo game, be it offline or even an online session, it certainly is not the same deal. That being said, this is a Beta Report, which I did enjoy, Herp, is being very honest about it and I appreciate that, as a Trekkie too having grown with TOS and then continuing to be a fan in my adulthood, movies and all of the series from TNG to Enterprise, I can understand that there is just more than exploring a game here, and it is also about fulfilling a wish of sorts in having the opportunity to immerse one's self in that ST universe. Cheers! | |
You're right on many fronts, Suraknar. While I agree that MMOs are meant to be played in a community of people, it's a hard (and slightly sad) fact that many people have to 'go it alone'. That said, it IS incumbent on the player to work into the game and begin understanding the mechanics of an MMO. BUT...this game will attract MANY new-to-MMORPG players like Herp. The tutorial and/or beginning levels should introduce non-MMORPGers to the way these games work. Guild Wars (I think?) did this very well when it originally came out: The game allowed players to play solo or in very small groups and ran them through quests that gave n00bs a good feel for what an MMORPG is and how it works. These introductory areas were, at least initially, optional and could be skipped by the more experienced crowd. I love what you wrote and agree with a lot of what you said. I especially agree with the honesty of the preview and need to tell you that that is precisely why I asked Herp to write it. :) | |
I am going to completely disagree with Suraknar here. I've been playing MMOs since Ultima Online and Everquest. MMO players are just like other gamers, we play games for entertainment. There is nothing entertaining in not knowing where to go to get your next mission; exploring a section of space to finish a mission is one thing, but being unable to find an Admiral on a space station where they have the technology to instantly locate any person from anywhere is inexcusable. The idea that MMO players expect this level of difficulty is ludicrous, and frankly, it smells of a fanboy aching for this game to be good. I can smell this because I am in the same boat. I grew up on Next Gen; Captain Picard is my childhood hero. I WANT to be him, piloting a space vessel for discovery and peaceful diplomacy (and combat when absolutely necessary). But Cryptic Studios is a company that has constantly proved itself to be incapable of delivering a quality MMO experience. Their past games (or GAME rather, as Champions Online is just a rehashed City of Heroes) are of the same level of mediocrity, and suffer from the exact problems Herp mentions, even years after release. Accusing Herp of being inaccurate because he doesn't play MMOs is pointless. Any gamer knows a game that is made well from a game that is obviously flawed and lacks polish. Cryptic Studios is NOTORIOUS for such games. Hell, random NPCs praising your accomplishments? Obviously they have been taking pages from City of Hero's book, and its a book that, for their sake, they shouldn't be reading all that closely. I am as disappointed to hear it as you Suraknar, but don't kill the messenger. All we can do is hope Cryptic hires someone who knows what they are doing, and they fix the problems come release. Frankly, I doubt they will, but I am crossing my fingers. | |
The beta sounds solid and I look forward to trying this out. As a Trek fan (not quite as old as Herp) there's a lot of appeal to STO for me, moreso than a lot of MMOs out there. | |
I made an account so I might post on this topic, given Suraknar's post. While I agree an MMO is suppose to be shared in experience by players, one thing it should not be is agro in feeling lost all the time. I'm a long time MMO player and I also beta-tested Star Wars Galaxies: An Empire Divided, and one of things I can say is that not finding someone you're looking for is a major problem. For 2 months straight we complained about that problem. So, while you might think getting lost trying to find one person is great, others do not. I encourage people new to the game to explore the area and yes, they should complete starter missions as it familiarizes you with MMO mechanics (as these are vastly different than those of other games) as well they should talk to people. But asking where to go, lets face it, WOW proves that an embarrassing thing to a new player. I also think more MMO's should be reviewed by non-MMO players. As it gives a different look in on the game and gives developers an idea of what they can do to make the game better for new players. When Jump to Lightspeed was in open beta, the thing I noticed when "n00bs" played was that the flight characteristics got better with each turn. (Though, later updates would lead to my leaving after the release of the Wookie expansion, as the game developers took an interest in making the game too much like WOW.) The simple fact is, games should help lead a player in the right direction. Think about it Suraknar, when you were in school, did you have to get up and teach the class everyday or was there a teacher in the room to help you learn and point you in the right direction? It's a simple fix (not really in the developers mind when they have to program in something) to add a way to waypoint you to the right person. And face it, in the ST Universe, it makes sense... remember, the computer can locate anyone anywhere as long as they have their communicator on them. One last thought to my rambling, if the game environment out side the ship where to be made to look as smooth as Eve, then I think I'd be happy. At times, it can seem a little jerky and not as, well expansive as a universe should look to me. And I agree, from what I've seen the interiors of the ships could use a little more filling in and seem... cozy? Nah, that doesn't seem right... Just more like what we've seen on the shows. Well, thanks for reading my post peoples! And keep up the good work Tony, welcome! | |
I want to say that I enjoyed the review. I am definitely going to be one of those individuals that is new to MMO's due to this title only (Star Trek TOS). So, it is good to get a feel for someone who doesn't play MMO's either. I too would find it frustrating if I had to spend an hour trying to locate someone on a space station. Especially when the setting has the advanced technology to locate anyone by asking the computer. While the point on it being an RPG and needing to ask individuals about certain subjects to get more info. is valid, I think that can get implemented later as your character is more developed and is trying to search for that rare technological species located in the far reaches of space. Having to find a person on a space station, an Admiral at that, by only being able to ask people is pretty ludicrous. For Mr. Herp, How challenging were the enemies? Were they well balanced? Meaning the Borg's were far more harder than a Klingon Warbird. Also, hoping that some of the challenges (like Borg's) require you to team up with individuals to take them on instead of being able to defeat them handily all by yourself. | |
Tony said in his article "The graphics, while not state-of-the-art, should be improved and elaborated-upon as work on the final product continues." I was originally writting to say, that the artwork is probably all done by now. But on second thought I realise, Cryptic could be rolling out an entire texture patch on release to take care of the In-Work textures on the DVDs. As for NPC locating I have to agree with Tony. A Find System should be part of every games Design Document, not a last minute add-on. I Luved that wacky yellow ribbon that Star Wars Galaxies used to waypoint thing in capital cities. Imagine, you type /find in chat, that opens a dialog window with a list of locations and npc. You select for instance "bizzar(auction house)" and a yellow ribbon appears floating above the ground leading you to one. An industry of 3rd party web sites has developed around telling gameers where to find NPCs, Mission Objectives and more. Why, because some game communities have a reputation for being hostile. The reality of MMOs is that the vast majority of gamers play a solo grind to end-game, and only then multiplayer end-game raiding. Forums are filled with posts demanding no-forced grouping. I enjoyed this article becuase it touched on what to me is the most import thing. How does it feel to move around. The very first thing I want to know about a MMO is if I can map Auto-Run to the tumb button on my mouse. Does moving around the environment feel like skating on ice or figting your way out of a 200 lb gill net? From what he said, there are gill net moments. Good Job Captain Herp. | |
I appreciated all of the comments, even those of the fellow who said that non-MMO players shouldn't write MMO reviews (although, because of the sheer history of the Star Trek franchise, I think I could be excused). Sometimes I think having someone who is somewhat of an "outsider" to a game type write a review could give a different slant to things, so, again, you'll just need to excuse me, as no offense was intended. It's my understanding that Cryptic tends to make games that are "middle-of-the-road" games that you don't need the top of the line computer to run, so this may be one reason why graphics aren't stellar -- it will allow a larger audience to run their games. I still hope to see some elaboration and improvements, however. In any case, there were so many good comments that I find it hard to respond to all of them; for Red Shirter: the enemies were fairly challenging; I particularly liked the in-space battles with a bunch of smaller ships and a large destroyer, which killed me a number of times until I began rotating my ship to allow damaged shields to recover while I continued to fire on the ship from a different side. Until I used a bit of strategy, it was, shall we say, challenging. For Konfess: I really liked your comments. They were enlightening for me, particularly your note that "An industry of 3rd party web sites has developed around telling gamers where to find NPCs, Mission Objectives and more. Why, because some game communities have a reputation for being hostile." Also the "gill net" comment. Yep, I found myself stuck behind tables, chairs and corners a number of times; annoying, but not game-killing. Perhaps they'll smooth that out a bit. In short, I really appreciated these responses, which, compared to most game forums I've participated in over the years, have been valid and intelligent, and didn't just come in and flame me. I like that, and I hope I can add some further insights and trade info in here as I continue the game. Thanks all... Herp | |
I will looking forward on this game ^^ | |
I've been playing MMORPGs since EQ1, that would be 10+ years now. I've played every western game that was out. I find that not being able to find a quest giver, inside a frigging QUEST HUB, is inadmissible. I am not in the beta so I can't comment whether the reviewer is correct or he just inadvertently turned off a map feature called "Show quest NPCs on map" or something ;) (there was quite a bit of that in Fallen Earth and the lack of a manual at release didn't help), but seriously, we have better things to do. Inside the game and outside. Also, if having the quest-giver NPC appear on the map is too lame for some, there could be a middle ground. I don't remember where I saw that, I think it was in DAoC, sorry, it's been a few years, but say you need an NPC named "John Smith". You walk to a guard and say "where is John Smith". He says "John Smith is to the North East". Not exactly a map marker, but with a bit of triangulation you're there. Sounds authentic too. | |
Just a bit of advice for you, Herp. Gamers play single-player games until the game ends, then we either replay or go on to something else. MMOs never really end until someday, years later, the producing corporation pulls the plug. But many players will continue to play the game long after they've ceased to find any enjoyment in it because they've been conditioned over many years of game playing to do just that--play until the game ends...which doesn't happen with MMOs. The company will continue to release marginal updates periodically to maintain the illusion that the game continues to have unexplored content. So just keep in mind that you will encounter many bitter, angry people who feel they are being abused and taken advantage of (though it's true, they are). Don't be one of those people, and don't pay too much attention to them, either (they are often very angry). With an MMO, you only play until you cease to have fun, be that a week, or a month, or 5 years. The game won't quit you, you're the one who has to quit it. If in that respect you treat an MMO as a single-player game, you will enjoy them. The alternative is not pretty. Anyway, sounds like you're having fun, and I hope you continue to do so! | |
Suraknar I agree completely, Having a person "Report" on a new MMO and not having any other MMO experience since Diablo/Diablo 2(Released 1996/2000, and would anyone actually class D1 or 2 as an MMO these days?) is total bullshit, especially since Cryptic put a link to this on the main website. Nothing against you Herp but if you play "Mindless" games like Unreal Tournament WTF are you doing "Reporting" on an MMO? maybe your wife should have taken the job? Quote Thats like saying I want to be a Doctor, but im glad I read this gardening book just to get a feel for it.GET A GRIP! Quote And about the map... I would bet that you skipped past the part were the person who told you to go to see the Admiral, told you exactly were to find him, instead you went bla bla bla "Accept Mission" and opened your map. Hmm /1 Anyone know were this Admiral is? The person who told you to go to him/her most likely said something like "Take the turbo lift to Deck 7 and report to the officers lounge to speak with Admiral Quinn, hes/shes been looking for you. MMOs are not a quick fix, there supposed to be played over months and years, good MMOs have a massive learning curve some taking months to learn the ropes of the game. A small thing like finding an Admiral during a tutorial is really insignificant. I hope you dont take this a Flameing or Ranting or whatever, im just telling you how it is. If you like FPS and hack and slash games dont report on MMOs. Interesting report since this is the only bit of info about someone actually playing the beta on the website. I am a small fan of Star Trek so I will be taking part in this one, but from Cryptics past attempts at doing an MMO I dont have my hopes up. | |
Get a grip...really? Can't you have a normal discussion without acting like a child internet bully? However, to answer your crude remark. I find it more akin to asking an Orthopedic Surgeon what it is like to be a Radiologist(using your Doctor analogy). He might not know exactly what it is like, but he gives a different perspective worth considering because he works with Radiologists. He has a medical understanding of Radiology and would provide a refreshing perspective that would be untainted from the usual doldrum of responses you would get from asking Radiologists all day. So, yes I did like the review for its change of pace perspective. I'm sure there will be a litany of reviews to read from indivuals "well versed" in MMO's, such as yourself, when Star Trek becomes available. Until then just appreciate it for what it is, a review from a Non-MMO player who possibly may have shed light on a game system that should be tweaked to take into account somebody who has never played an MMO before. I will let Capt. Herp defend himself, but in the future you should refrain from accusing someone with assumptions and then within the same post claim that you are not Flaming or Ranting. It comes across as disingenuous. | |
I think perspective of a non-MMO player is incredibly valuable. A game should stand on its own merits. Before there were "conventions" that self-proclaimed genre experts have all come to expect and navigate with habitual ease, there was a trial and error phase to get them "right." With an outsider perspective, you get to find out how on the mark these conventions are. "MMO people" with elitist attitudes towards who they feel can offer appropriate insight into a game sound like people with poor senses of humor convinced that "you had to be there" jokes can really be funny. Last I checked, games were supposed to be fun, you know, for most people who would play them. Someone who is an admitted buff of the lore that the game is based on should have plenty of qualifications for explaining how well it has been pulled off. | |
Hello All, I am new to WarCry but not MMOs. After reading Herp's first impressions and some of the other comments, it seems that "quest finding" is an issue in STO. I have played WoW for years and they did not add a quest finding system till way later. Most people were using a mod for this and a lot still use their own mods anyway because they prefer them to the original interface. I do feel, however, that WoW finally got it right and personally, I think all MMOs should follow that model. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying for all MMOs to "copy" WoW, but quest finding should be a simple thing to implement IMHO. As a Trekkie myself, I am still going to try out STO and look forward to the immerse experience:D Ynygma | |
Sorry if im off topic but... Yes Red Shirter, Get a grip on reality, The only thing thats the same about MMO and FPS games is that they are computer games. So the only bit of useful information you can get off someone with no MMO experience is what its like not to play an MMO. | |
You know, I am an MMO and FPS player. In fact, I am a true gamer. I play everything I can, as long as it follows some rules... It has to be fun to play and it has to be interesting. MMOs are currently in a war to copy each other best, but as another poster point out, these "conventions" of MMOs... the expectations that "people" like Gorbachoph assume to be part of the genre are not a requirement. In the next year even, new "conventions" will be created in the MMO genre. FPS games have taken on new "conventions" too. When I played the original Half Life... nay, the original Doom for PC, nay... the original Wolfenstein 3D... there wasn't any leveling besides going to new maps. The most you got was a new gun in a new map from time to time. Now, players get new guns by "leveling" up. Just like in an MMO. Sure, not all FPS games are doing this yet, but the popular ones are. My point or the "too long didn't read" version: Being a rude prick about games is COUNTER-INTUITIVE. So is coming to a Star Trek Online thread and disrespecting a trekkie, and an original at that. Gorb, I suggest you wallow in your conventional MMO sorrows while the rest of us enjoy, speculate about, and discuss the future of gaming. | |
Just to add a bit... I play WoW and have done so for 5 years. I'm also currently rapidly progressing through MW2 on 360. Some nights I play WoW, other nights I play MW2, and other nights I watch Star Trek. I think someone who hasn't played MMOs as much is going to be a significant market share for Star Trek Online, as lots of Trekkies exist, and they aren't all current gamers. When they sniff this game on the wind, they'll come to check it out. Herp is an AWESOME choice to preview this game. He might not be used to the way an MMO makes you stumble around like you are blind, when you are new to them, anyway, or to Cryptic's... cryptic controls and games... but either way, I am going to find out for myself and I heartily appreciated every word he is willing to type about the game, since I can't try it for myself yet! | |
Ha! Your a funny guy I must say, do you think your some Gaming Guru beacuse youve played the original Half Life... nay, the original Doom for PC, nay... the original Wolfenstein 3D... (rofl) who the fuck hasnt? WoW is perfect for you, its a congregation of the biggest pack of psychos and losers on the planet, if anyone doesnt believe me? heres proof http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCYT-GTwolU On a more topical matter, I was playing in the STO closed beta last night, Im happy to report everything seems normal and obvious, one thing that made me laugh was when an NPC meets say.... a table they jump 15 feet into the air to clear it, very funny. And this is what really made me laugh, if you all read back on the report or look at my Post about Finding Admiral Quinn in the station (ROFLMAO) the Starbase hes in is the first one you enter, and your told to see him before you dock, so when I dock the first thing I see is a massive sign saying "Admiral Quinns Office" (LMAO!) and a 10feet tall Flashing door (hahahaha). This is just more proof that most people (Mostly Americans) are just too retarded for gaming, you can all bitch and whine at me all you like but at the end of the day I know im right. I wont be posting here again as this is clearly a vessel for idiots. Good luck with WoW scity. rofl.... | |
Gor...take it down a notch, hmm? Thanks. | |
To Gorbachoph in particular: your assumption that I am not "an MMO guy" is correct, but to assume that I have never played them is faulty (the Guild Wars series is one I have extensively played in the past, as one example). Perhaps I am not an "MMO guy" because that type of game hasn't particularly appealed to me in the past. I am glad to note that you "won't be posting here again," as, while I tried to be helpful, and most respondants were helpful with their responses, you seem to be trying for the Gaming Guru title yourself -- or at least the resident flamer. I'm sorry you didn't find my initial look at the game helpful. There are more ways to say that than through personal attacks, or attacks on nationalities (I assume that, due to your spelling of "neighbourhoods", you're not American). I'm glad you're playing the game and find it normal and obvious. It must be nice to be an expert. The point of the article was actually, other than pointing out first impressions, that with this game Cryptic may succeed in drawing players to purchase and play the game (i.e. Star Trek fans) who heretofore weren't "MMO guys." Sorry if that wasn't normal enough, or obvious enough, for you. Herp | |
You must have been planning that reply for weeks Herp, get the misses to help you? I just had to make one more post. Your a complete failure. Why would I make a negative comment about Americans if I was one? Just more proof it seems? How am I a gaming expert for picking up on whats normal and obvious for humans? Being able to see flashing doors and massive signs with bold letters is a human trait no? I didnt realise it was developed by gamers over years of practice. I can only imagine if you tried to make a post on EVE Online for example, you wouldnt stand a chance There is nothing there for trekkie fans in STO, ive played the game a bit more and its also a complete failure. Nothing about the game is good. So Herp, please keep this position as a columnist for WarCry so youll never attempt to comment on any other games. | |
Gorbachoph, you need a few days off. Either make some substantive commentary relative to the game or quit posting. As you've indicated you're unlikely to actually play the game, there's little more to be said. | |
Not worth the time. | |
Being that Yrcraw Intrepid's IP matches gorbachoph's, your point is rendered null. | |
HAHA???? I really cant believe you just posted that.... | |
*sighs* Proof: Your last post: 86.46.18.*** (leaving out the last 3 numbers to keep the IP safe for YOU) I think everyone's pretty clear that you don't care for STO and you disliked Herp's article. Since, as you've adequately stated, you're not going to play the game, there's really little point in continuing to post on this thread. Well, unless you're actively -trying- to flame. ;) | |
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Star Trek Online Beta Report
WarCry is pleased to feature a new columnist, Tony Ford, to our august ranks. With hours of Star Trek Online beta game time under his belt, Tony presents our readers with a first look impression of one of the hottest titles of 2010. Read on!
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