The Death of Story, Part I

MMO worlds are stagnant. They have cardboard cutout monsters and NPCs that stand in their assigned space. Players knock the monsters down like a fantastical shooting range, but after a few minutes, the pulleys whir, the monsters stand up, and the world reverts to its static state. On a micro level where thousands of players are sharing the same game space, this is to be expected. The problem is that it also exists at a macro level and constantly echoes in the background, "This world is not real... this world is not real..."

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OK well, that is a by FAR better and more interesting and well written tale then I ever hoped to write, but it is exactly what I was thinking about LOTRO. Although with my mess youd never tell. Well done!

(Ill write mine here just to see - but my mine gripe was the PVP aspect and lack of interaction)

The problem with LOTRO

Quite simply put. Its BORING. Now dont get me wrong. I was an avid player who enjoyed it very much, except after a while it just gets DULL. Its the same over and over. Grind. It may vary it up with ooh a bigger stronger orc camp but its the same. The MAIN PROBLEM tho is ANYTHING that I DO, is POINTLESS - and thats the reason it is boring. It feels dead.

NOTHING I DO MAKES A DIFFERENCE TO THE WORLD

I kill 3 orc camps - they are still there today, they will still be there tommorow, they respawn about 5 mins after I slaughter them all. So whats the point?

Thats the reason I feel is the main problem. I do not feel involved. I AM NOT INVOLVED, I am mearly sitting here grinding them for no reason except my own satisfaction.
These people at level 50 need an additional challenge, which is not a bigger/harder raid. Sigh, its just the same. Against other people you can apply TACTICS that dont fool npc's

Now why am I ranting about this?

There is a big discussion right now about PVP in the game and how it would ruin it. I am very happy it is PVE but lets take a look at something recently released - Warhammer and where some points of it could help LOTRO

I still want to keep LOTRO a PVE thing certainly, but have PVP in there too. Now before all you PVP Haters start shouting. Wait!

Keep them seperate.

There are so many reasons PVP could be a good thing, but does NOT have to interfere with the main game.

Warhammer has areas that are PVE - with small zones in them that are PVP - why not have that? If people want to PVE fair enough, they dont need to go to these areas. DO NOT force them on people, if others DO then fair be let them. Now as for feeling involved when Im PVE'ing - how could I do that? Perhaps by making my quests actually do something that may affect the world.

Take the average quest for example - Go there, get something, return.

Why should I maybe not go somewhere to get say some WOOD but that wood actually helps the PVP'ers build a barricade (or even just the NPC's in game against NPC's attacking) You manage to get enough you help save the place, you dont, it can get overrun (oh dear)

Now I cancelled my LOTRO account and am not fully interested in Warhammer (but my mate bought me it) but I see so many things that are a GOOD IDEA. Now my system is below spec - therefore I spend all my time in the PVE area's as I cant handle PVP (I could in LOTR) This is where you can bring me back Lord. Now I feel my grinding or whatever has a purpose however small, it helps. My killing the pointless orc's DO make a TINY TINY difference in control of the land. There could be areas of the game past Moria (for the next big update) that has a game mechanic like this. These can be area's where PVE'srs NEVER need to tread. The main story can go on following the fellowship - and completly bypass this area. Take the latest area add on. Fornost was it? Ive never been there, Im not particuarly interested or excited to go there, i doubt the story goes up there. Evendim - just a bit area with more of the same that everywhere else has. So why not have an area that can cater to the PVP'ers and leave them be. I also like the open quest idea, that bring people together to the same place, and to do somthing which has a common goal but you dont really get your rewards STOLEN as such, you do the work, you (mostly) get the reward

Now - the main point - the Ettenmoors and the Creeps

For an update I want to see an overhaul. Completly. I remember back in the day where I had fun in the Ettenmoors, I like being a creep, making a band of guys and go killing things - (alot of the time PVE actually but Ill get back to that) Nowdays its a big ZERG fest. A big group sweeps across, takes everything and then back we go. Noone wants to go out and be a hero as 600 stuns roots etc will stick you and you are dead in .06 of a second. Rubbish. Die, move, die, move. More people wins = yep dull. Make the game mechanic for this different from the rest of the game, I think diminishing effects were coming in when I left, but still there needs to be a reason, I hear a capture the flag thing is coming in.

Remove the Trolls and Rangers but not entirely.Everyone doesnt bother when they come, so get rid of them. People that are new love to go them, I know I did, but i was shocked everyone was moaning. but I want to be a troll and kill things! SO There could be a PVE area where you can go one, and slaughter NPC's to your hearts content. Also if one team owns the whole moors or nearly all , 1 can be done to restore balance, im pretty certain this is the case anyway

Ok for a start we could have Creeps enter from usual place but also a side route down to dargazet(?) Where you get the (rubbish) quests - so there is no more camping the base - they can exit antoehr way so if there is a big freep gang outside, they can go round the side for TACTICS. Freeps have the same, usual place - side route UP to the right. End of camping spawn, as its useless.

Make there a POINT to capturing the keeps - I dont know, perhaps a bonus for all involved or for an area of the world - or events that might change somewhere in the world (temp) Anyway a REASON for these keeps to be captured and HELD.

Lets see now, perhaps you have everywhere but the starting points - THEN you could open up an attack on the Secondary starting point (dargazet) It would be a hard battle but once you have won that, you win something big. The camping may come back in then but there will be the big fight back - and if you hold it for say I dunno 3 days, it will auto reset regardless but you get a MASSIVE bonus.

The auto reset could be the trolls and rangers - If you hold all the keeps for that long, a warning will sound (so you know to get the feek out of there) A Horn of Gondor say, then 5 mins later a whole host of comp controlled rangers whatever will arrive to take back the keep. Then we can start all over again, but they had lost - THIS TIME

Once you capture a keep, open up the tasks. I like the idea of sending a scout for reinforcements they have, and the collecting for oil. But make them count. You maybe have 30 mins after to go out in the world and gather the defences before the ineveitable counterattack (could even be comp controlled some of them just to make it a good battle - easy to kill but to seem like a good reattack They will never win on there own tho) You have enough defences to keep them back (if people have done the quests) well done. Thats a PVE bit (in the pvp world) There is a point to me killing the slugs - I am defending my keep. There is a point me collecting the wood and rock. Im sure thats the idea ATM, but it doesnt seem to make a difference wether I do it or not in terms of the game world. Just my own little one, where I get some xp.

This is Lord of the rings ONLINE, if there is no interaction with others then I would rather it not be online, but pay for my updates and be by myself the whole time with the computer if I do NOT interact with OTHER PEOPLE, then I could do without the lag, without the annoying messages. Or people stealing my monsters Im about to attack, or this and that and the next thing. I can see they try and make people interact with quests requiring fellowships, but they annoy me. ALOT. I am FORCED to find people to go adventure with, but what usually ends up happening is I leave all the quests until a) I am strong enough to do solo) or b) I find some people willing (or people in my clan) to do them with. And what usually ends up happening THERE is that the people who have done it before, storm off and do all the work and I am not immersed in whatever the main story is meant to be! Off they rush and do whatever the task was and I am just glad its over. Then I do them all in one day, and then thats it, back on my own again.

I like the idea in Warhammer there is a little button you can push that will get you in a PVP - now once again, this does NOT have to be PVP for LOTRO - it could be a button for a PVE scenario ,where you need lots of people and solo people (and groups if they so wish) can join. This could be a variety of things, one ni each zone. For instance, in The Shire, it could be just a game of hobnannigans , just a silly fun thing, although I would prefer it to be THE BEER RACE! You know, just events that BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER, and the winner can be displayed with pride somewhere. Could run either when there are a certain amount of people, or just ever 30 mins.
For somewhere like the lone lands -a big event where everyone goes into an instance and raids a orc encampment with a big boss. WITHOUT the need to spend 4 hours tying to organise your people around, or find people who want to do it in your guild whatever. Just a fun jolly raid with other REAL people, but of course we know that the real victory would be against others.

Places that have PVP can have it to GOTO a PVP event, places that dont, another type of event. Just something for people to do TOGETHER without any hassle (and certainly no LFF messages ;) )

Now as it has been categorically stated that LOTRO is more a PVE - well why not PVE for the bad guys? I would love to have an area where it is ONLY for CREEPS whose orders are told to do this and that, so I can use my evil guy to burn hobbit villages. I liked taking on the hobbit village in the ettenmoors but usually someone would come along to ruin the day. Make it worthwhile doing the tasks for my bad guy to level up, and the inevitable taking on other people. Why not PVE for the creeps, even just a little bit.

Now the PVP/PVE thing, they can be seperate you DO NOT have to go into PVP if you want the best armour, there could be TWO types of armour. The same stats etc but with one that affects PVP play with bonus's that only apply to taking on other people.

This should cater to ALL people, you want PVP, you have it, you dont, you dont need to. I agree I dont think orc should be overrunning the shire, they cant go there. End of. But certain areas, can be winnable for the evil side.

Ultimatly in the end, nothing really changes, the good guys will take it back, but it gives the ILLUSION of change in the world, it doesnt feel pointless AS there is a DIFFERENCE in the world (at THAT time) It makes it a bit more ALIVE. I want more far reaching consequnces of wiping out an orc camp, you get me? And while it may not be as people driven NPC's could rebuild an army and resetablish it but not respawning instantly. But the people in game, can stop them, or help stop them, yes? Im pro to that aswell as pvp - see via another side, pvp - there is more tactics, more change, more life.

and people on the opposing side, do the same some pve which can help shape the world. I need more monster pve'ing.

Hopefully this can make it interesting again, I need interaction with other people, but it doesnt need to be fighting them, I could race them (officially) I know there are games of tag hidden out there, but there is no REASON to do them, and noone really does. Give me a reason, and ill interact, and HAVE FUN as I take on REAL PEOPLE.

Even not interacting in warhammer, i can see things are going on, i can see keeps being taken, and the bar in the top right changing as the world does, it makes me feel there is things going on. I feel alone and empty in lotro

You have a few years turbine, hopefully not everyone abandons you, as i want to see us reach mordor in the end, and while places like Helms deep doesnt need to be PVP (but it better be darn good!) somewhere *like* it further away could be. Might spice it up a bit.

I had a million other thigns to say as well but it will take up too much time and too much reading, but thats my main gripe - take note turbine please.

Please let me know what you guys think, Im not good at writing these things but in my head I know what I mean :) Im not immersed in the game world as I should be (in fact when i run through the forest I feel like benny hill albeit just being chased by 5 bears, which ultimatly annoys me) I had thoughts about travel, speed, blah blah, but i can live with all that, just let me have the POINT of being ONLINE. Im quite happy running about myself (but its the same thing over and over - thats where other people come in, less predicatable) and it not being soley to be forced into fellowshipping as i need to take on bigger things, which gives me no lasting satisfaction as at the moment as it seems these helpers i need to deal with - they dont need to be real. The thing is i AM online, and I WANT to interact with other people as strange as that sounds but there to be more of a reason and point to my doing so. A lasting impression on the game world however small my contribution is (even if i am collecting wood for a big group of PC's to defend against a bunch of orc NPC or not....

Anyway I think PVP is a good thing, If i want to, i can interact, when I dont, I can busy myself collecting pies in the shire whatever. A choice. At least in Warhammer I have a reason for PVE'ing its helping everyone on my side in the smallest bit so we dont lose the big battle (as each quest can affect the raging war in who controls the zones in the smallest poss way) Just keep the area away from the pve bit so everyones happy. I want it to be more a living breathing world, and the only way that can be done it people driven. so pvp IN or even just your actions against the npc's making more of a change (even if temp) at the moment the npc's could be made of stone for all that they do.

Seperate areas, different things, same world.

One game that comes to my mind right away as a buster of stagnant gameworld model, that by the way meets Steinhauer's second criteria is Wurm Online. Not really playable, though certainly player-shaped.

No MMO can ever accomplish this. If *I* get to slay the dragon, then no one who comes after me can. People will not want to play a game like that. They want to be the hero, each and every one of them. If that's the case, then no one can shape the game.

The closest anyone ever came, in my knowledge, was Asheron's Call and the Defense of the Herald...but even that was scripted after a point. There were related events (nexus armor) which were one per world, ever, and the playerbase spoke - we don't like those kind of events. We all want a share.

Unless I misread the article, and it was a PvP rant in disguise?

No, you're right Roberto. That's one thing can only exist in single player RPGs. My cutout example may have been misleading. It was intended to be a very local analogy that I was using to allude to a broader issue. I'm talking about global changes. So far, PvP is the pretty much only gaming aspect that has moved forward on this. It's not a PvP rant, rather a complement that that part is growing. But there is potential in other aspects of games that from PvE to diplomacy to mercantilism and so on. Thus far, these have remained stagnant. In all aspects, including PvP, there has been very little attempt at true global story telling, with the notable exception of AC.

Matrix Online has an ongoing story with related quests as well as the standard cardboard cutout stuff. I didn't play this for long but it was interesting what the did with a popular, existing IP, even adding some quite significant developments.

I'm currently playing WAR and while it is basically one side vs. the other, each side can capture areas and ultimately their rival's city. The mechanic for an evolving storyline is there if only they'd tie these wins and losses into NPC dialogue.

I think some people play MMOs to create and live their own story, others to participate in the grand schemes created by the writers. LOTRO has a great story, it's just one you go along with. More sandbox-like games such as Ryzom, EVE etc. have some vague lore and the rest is up to the players.

I'd argue that it would be very difficult to have a really compelling story that players can influence. Maybe someone will come up with a branching system where the quests available or the flavour text for them at least changes based on player actions.

I agree with all of what you said, though, I would like to point out a game that I think did break this mold but was never fully recognized for it. Horizons had a world where the players had a direct impact on what happened in the story arc. At the time I was playing it, there was a world wide quest to free a race from slavery. Once freed, that race was now playable. In order to free them though, the crafters had to build the structures to get to the battle while the fighters had to defend them. It was really cool for a short while. Now this was a few years ago and I can't say what happened to that game. I left for personal real life stuff but every time I try an MMO, I am struck by what you have written and I also think about Horizons. The game had many flaws but they hit something there, something that should be built upon I think.

It's worth pointing out that WotLK's "phasing zones" are a neat little way to deal with this.

Okay, so... you know how if a Mage uses Invisibility, they can't be seen, but they can't see anyone else who isn't Invisible? If you get Detect Invis cast on you, though, you can see them - but now they can see you as well. You've been "phased" into that invisible world.

Phasing zones is sort of like that. As you complete a quest, you'll have a little invisible buff (or something, not sure how the mechanics work - you'll just be flagged for the 'next phase,' most likely) that will phase you into the next iteration of the zone. Like say you did a quest to set a village on fire, for example. You'd be moved into the next phase of the zone, where that village would always be burning whenever you came back. However, someone who hadn't yet done that quest chain would see it just as a normal, not-burning village.

There's a quest in Icecrown to rescue some friendly Death Knights/Forsaken. Once you do that, you're sent back out to where you rescued them - but they've set up an outpost, complete with flight path and vendors, now. It's become a quest hub. Someone who hasn't rescued them won't see that quest hub, though, they'll have to do the quest first.

It's not PERFECT, but it's a cool little way to make players feel like they're affecting zones :)

I have to tell ya, im getting really bored with WoW. I just cant justify it in my head to pay 15 bucks a month to do the same thing i have been doing for years. I think stagnant is the best word you could have ever used to describe the current state of MMO's.

Epic post is Epic. That's all...

For all of you that have felt this problem, a game is currently in development that you should definitely take a look at: Wakfu. If you ever played DOFUS, its by the same designers (Ankama) as a sequel of sorts. Its actually taking on a huge challenge in what they're trying to accomplish with the game, including an ecosystem where Monsters evolve over time. Extinction of entire species, from monsters to mushrooms, is also possible in the system. Take a look. I warn you now that it is tactical and it is 2D, but its definitely worth it. I believe its set to release some time in 09, though knowing Ankama, that won't happen.

http://game.wakfu.com/en/