I've really lost any and all motivation to argue this thoroughly. I've also lost pretty much any interest in returning to WarCry - not because of the Corner thing, nor because of the whole badge farming thing - but because of the knee-jerk reactions from the COMMUNITY MANAGER of all people. Cheese posted that he disagreed with a new policy/structure and left it open for comment. Then we have it locked before anyone can make a reply, claiming that Cheese was trolling and inciting flames.

I create a thread in reference to the locked thread because I felt it was necessary to continue the discussion. It wasn't because I thought it'd be funny to challenge his authority. Granted, the signature I used was a bit inflammatory, but still, it wasn't meant to be taken seriously - I figured the lackluster style would have signaled that. I then receive not one, but three notices in my inbox: 2 suspensions and 1 probation. I was told later the probation is the one that actually went into effect and should have been the initial response. Instead, while the entire community was reeling and attempting to figure out what was happening, I could post nothing. I couldn't defend myself. I couldn't defend my viewpoints. And I couldn't point out that nowhere in the rules does it explicitly state: "Do not reference locked threads."

The moral of the story: Before you start suspending active users that have helped build the community and members that have helped build WarCry (Thanks for all your database work in L2 Senor Queso), you should evaluate your position and understand the repercussions of your actions. Further, perhaps you should grab some user feedback on upcoming shifts in policy and structure before implementing them. At least then everyone is prepared.

Of course, as a capitalist entity in itself, you cannot ignore the underlying functions of what happens when you increase traffic to each site: Advertising Revenue. Themis Media cannot be faulted for padding their bottom line. Whether or not this was the primary reason for the shift in modus operandi, it is likely it played into the equation. Sadly, this also means that no matter how persuasive, how convincing, or how eloquently written my argument against this new stance would be, it wouldn't matter. Money always wins. Paranoia? Maybe. Spot on? Perhaps. I don't hold a job that makes me privy to their inner workings and I can't access the minutes to their meetings. At this point, it's all speculation - but at least I can support my stance.

Good day, WarCry.

You know, it's sad to see such animosity from anyone, on any side. You complain about our spammers, and we complain about them too. But when the people who aren't spammers, who actually make well thought out posts and comment on the topic at hand post here, we get lumped in with the spammers. At the same time, I've found that many Escapists lump all of WarCry into the same group of people that hate everything Escapist and anyone that hasn't been on WarCry for years now. Even I have thought like that, from time to time, but I still manage to separate the wheat from the chaff in my mind, and realize that not every WarCry poster is going to flame any and all Escapist posters for being from the Escapist, regardless of their posts.

The problem I'm seeing is, while both sites have their... unsavory groups of posters, The Escapist is a larger site. So our unsavory group is a larger ratio to good posters when they start to leak into this forum, an admittedly less populated one. What we on The Escapist see as a relatively small group of spammers and badge/post whores, when you take into account the total number of active posters on both sites, the group is enormous on here. Naturally, the regular posters here lash back and try to stop it. But that causes a prejudice to spread on both sides. The Escapist generally considers WarCry to be full of elitist pricks that refuse to let anyone else into their "special club". On the other hand, WarCry seems to generally consider The Escapist to be full of spammers and badgewhores. Neither of these perceptions are completely true, but they are not without merit. When the first thing people on this site see from The Escapist are post whores, they will have their view of everyone from that site colored as such. And when the first few posters from The Escapist post here and get smacked in the face for being postwhores, they're going to come back and tell all their friends that WarCry is full of nothing but exclusive assholes. That view spreads, and pretty soon becomes the prevailing view. It's practically racism, just on a basis of what site people frequent more.

Prejudice is prejudice, there's no two ways about it. And while prejudice can be lessened, or even hopefully expunged altogether, it can't happen without effort being put forth on both sites. I said before that we complain about spammers and postwhores on The Escapist as well, and there's a lot of people on that site who are saying that the forum is "going downhill" and that "the new users are nothing but badge/post whores". Which is what I seem to be seeing as the response here. Personally, I've been trying to lead by example, by making posts that actually bring something of value to the discussion at hand. I'm not talking about making long, multiple paragraph posts. I've made three or four sentence posts, even one or two sentence posts sometimes, if that's all I need to say what I was trying to say. And I know for a fact that I'm not the only person that's doing this, along with PMing new users to try to help them improve. Yes, there are people that refuse to improve, and that refuse to learn, and they eventually burn out and either stop posting or get banned for their stupidity. But a majority of the people I've contacted have thanked me for helping them and actually changed their posting habits, becoming the kind of posters that people actually appreciate. Problem is, the people trying to help and lead by example are a vastly overwhelmed minority, overpowered by the people that just yell "Troll" and "GTFO". So when they get yelled at for their posts on one site, they move to the other. And then you get the same crap we had to deal with. But what is for us a small group of new posters is for you a massive flood of idiots.

The bridging of the two sites by means of the Corner idea could work well, bringing more intelligent posters to and from both sites, but only if the intelligent posters from The Escapist aren't lumped into the same group as the idiot trolls and spammers and necro-ers that we hate. It creates a bad impression among both groups, and leads to the non-spammers staying on The Escapist, where they don't get attacked unjustly. I think it could have been worked better, maybe creating one subforum that is present on both sites, providing a middle ground so that the dedicated WarCry members don't feel like they are being drowned by the new Escapist posters. All in all, I think this has become a matter of unjust prejudice from both camps. A situation that can be remedied, but not without effort from all parties involved: The Escapist members, WarCry members, and moderators to stop what really is spamming.

I completely agree with Xitel. Yes, some people from the escapist whore themselves out for badges, but not everyone does that. Whenever I post on warcry, I feel like I walking into a room, and everyone in that room automatically shoots a death stare in my direction. It's a shame, because I don't feel that I should have to prove myself to be able to post on a forum. My last post on warcry (which detailed my feelings about the hatred people show toward escapists) just got the simple response "I hate you." That sucks. That is not intelligent discussion. That is complete prejudice, and I can't stand it.

So I love this "corner" idea. Ban the thread necromancers and move on. It's as simple as that. People will learn very quickly not to use warcry as a badge farm, and the community will grow in an intelligent way (assuming the regulars allow it). Problem solved. I really hope that once all this animosity dies down, both communities will benefit from this.

I've been lurking at Warcry for a year and a bit now because I was directed to this website from a link (that seems to have been removed) from the Escapist front page. I found a community that seemed interesting but as I don't play many MMOs I never bothered posting and only paid any attention to the Off-topic. I must admit that when the badges came out I did decide to make a couple of posts. I suppose you could call me a badge whore, although I have since stopped caring about them, but I just want a cool badge to be under my name. The two 'coolest' being the Phantom of the Opera themed badge and the Forum Vagabond badge. So I made a few posts, one was about APB, one other about WAR and the other I can't remember but I'm pretty sure it was a comment on some thread. The first two where genuine questions that I was looking for answers to, I never got much of a reply but I have since stopped caring about those games.

Anyway, that's how I found Warcry and finally decided to post here. Why the hell can't people find Warcry in the same way and not be bribed to post?

It is my opinion that people should not be encouraged to post here because of a badge even if it makes me a hypocrite. Users should discover and take part in a community because it interests them and they have something they want to talk about, they shouldn't post in a forum for a silhouette of a cowboy(?) under their name. In my honest opinion the Forum Vagabond badge should be removed and a link to Warcry should be present on the front page. That way the members that are 'good' for Warcry will eventually find it and join up while the members that are 'bad' will not bother joining.

This 'corner' is shoving Warcry down the Escapists' throat and doing the same to Warcry. All the corner is doing is multiplying the effects of the Forum Vagabond badge. The only difference now is that the people looking for the badge don't even have to come to Warcry to fuck it up (well you still need to post in another two forums but still...). It isn't merging communities, it isn't supporting Warcry, it's letting the Escapists' get a badge and the making the WoW forum wither and die or become bloated and filled with pointless posts.

The corner is a terrible idea and should be removed, much like the Forum Vagabond badge. Warcry doesn't need to be joined at the waist with the Escapist, it deserves to be it's own forum with some independence.

I also find it odd why the Escapist hates Warcry. I mean, they don't actually do anything bad to anyone unless provoked while the Escapist seems to find joy in running around and making fun of other websites, let us not forget the 4chan incident. It seems to me like The Escapist are the villains in this Tale of Two Communities.

I agree, I think the Corner idea was an attempt at a step towards bridging the two sites, but it was a step a bit to the left of the right direction. I don't think just placing a random link to a random forum here was the best idea. Like I suggested before, they could have made one subforum that existed on both WarCry and The Escapist at the same time, allowing people to mingle without going onto each other's "home turf", if you will. The Corner may have been intended to encourage cross-traffic, but the two sites are very different places, not that that's a bad thing, but it means that a direct link between the two isn't really the best way to encourage the two to mingle. I think it was a bad idea with good intentions, to put it simply.

And yes, I agree that the Forum Vagabond badge needs to be changed, if not done away with altogether. If the Escapist had 7 forums to post in, then I'm sure the number of badgewhore spammers flooding to this site would decrease a great deal. Right now, these people that have some sort of inexplicable hard on for a random little picture under their avatar have only one option to get it, and they don't care what they have to do in order to get their grubby little mitts on it. As such, the WarCry forums get spammed with "This game looks cool" "This one does too" "So does this one. Okay, I've got the badge. Bye." Which I think we can all agree is just annoying to everyone.

I personally don't care about the 'merger' or whatever you want to call it. Admittedly I was kind of getting annoyed by the spam whores on our site, but I found that I genuinely liked some of the 'new' members from the escapist.
I think what a lot of people need to consider is that many of us from Warcry have been apart of this forum for 4+ years... Goddamn we're losers.
Anyway, there's a reason why I kept coming back to this forum, its because of the community.
People have come and gone, and the forums had its phases of changes, this being one of them.
Personally, I think it be great if we can get people to come to our off-topic and talk about sstuff. However, this is not The Escapist, and typically if you try to start up a thread that arouses controversy or discussion, it probably won't do too well given that many of us who've been apart of this particular community have already been through it before. We had our phase where there was a topic that stirred up discussions, arguments, and even controversy every other hour or so. However, many of us just realized that there was no constructive purpose for it. People kept voicing their opinions without reading what other's had to say, except for a very few who took time out of their day to read through pages of posts, when they could have easily googled more scholarly or legitimate sources on the matter at hand.

What I do disagree with, however, is how Mr.Cheese and Moon was treated for voicing their opinions. Regardless of my personal
viewpoint on the particular matter they were voicing their opinion on, it was f'd up how their voices were silenced almost immediately.
If we really do want to build a bridge between these two communities, then silencing two of our oldest members, who genuinely contribute and would like to see this community prosper, would be a bad idea.
As Wanderer already mentioned, it would be constructive to hear what the Warcry community has to say. There are two sides at the ends of a bridge. If there isn't successful communication between the two sides, then each half is just going to lead people straight into the river.

mrcheese:
I felt the need to read this post after moon linked it to me.

With a large portion of the most active warcry posters gone, the forum is essentially escapist regulars posting.

This thread is a perfect example, 80% of the posts here are from escapist members bitching about warcry.

Seriously, this place is just an escapist subforum now, may as well make it official.

...because we asked them to. We invited all members of the escapist and warcry communities to share their thoughts here. And what are many of them saying? That they want to mingle with the WarCry community - not for "badge farming," but because they're interested in the content. And hence, become regulars of both sites.

I like this Danzorz guy. I do not like this Merger, it was poorly done. It's like a "Hey, Surprise kick in the nuts!" Sort of deal to the older members of Warcry.

All I have to say in this is that, First Impressions are highly important, and even more important they last. You can never redo them. The Escapists ruined their first impression with us, and its going to cost them.

Wolfkin14:
I like this Danzorz guy. I do not like this Merger, it was poorly done. It's like a "Hey, Surprise kick in the nuts!" Sort of deal to the older members of Warcry.

All I have to say in this is that, First Impressions are highly important, and even more important they last. You can never redo them. The Escapists ruined their first impression with us, and its going to cost them.

Who said it was a merger... the sites have always been linked anyway

I think the heart of the matter is, many of the established members of this particular forum tried to voice their opinion on the matter, and they were quickly silenced for reasons that many thought were ludicrous.
There were plenty of escapists members that many of us were glad to chill with on this forum. And I for one would like to see some new members contributing to our forum.
Like I said before, if there is to be a bridge built between these two communities, there needs to be communication on both sides.
Or else we'll have two halves of bridges leading straight into the river.

Here's what I don't understand. This is not a merger, nothing is being forced down anyone's throats. We made it easier for folks at the Escapist to mix and mingle with the folks at WarCry. The sites have always been linked and affiliated -- all the Corner really does is provide a shortcut to the forum.

What is anyone being "forced" to do? Both communities are being invited to stroll through a different neighborhood. If you don't want to, you don't have to. If you choose to, though, you are expected to treat that neighborhood with the same respect you would demand for your own. That's perfectly reasonable and fair.

Like I stated, as well as Moonpenguin, its not about the two communities mingling together that got many people upset. Concerned yes, but nothing worth leaving the forum for. What made many people leave was how the people who wanted to voice their opinion on the matter, were quickly silenced for unjustified reasons. Mr.Cheese tried to voice his opinion on the current state of Warcry and tried to start up a conversation about it, and the thread was closed because someone thought it was trolling.

I really do hate to see the state Warcry is in right now. Many of my good friends are now gone, and I'm hoping to see them return here sometime soon. However, that may not be the case.
I'm starting to wonder if voicing my opinion matters anymore cause I don't think anyone is even listening. Even if there are people listening, there isn't much anyone, nor I, can do to alleviate this situation.

leecho7:
I think the heart of the matter is, many of the established members of this particular forum tried to voice their opinion on the matter, and they were quickly silenced for reasons that many thought were ludicrous.
There were plenty of escapists members that many of us were glad to chill with on this forum. And I for one would like to see some new members contributing to our forum.
Like I said before, if there is to be a bridge built between these two communities, there needs to be communication on both sides.
Or else we'll have two halves of bridges leading straight into the river.

Actually, no one was silenced. Moonpenguin was banned for about 10 minutes, at most, then changed to a probation (one can still post when one's under probation). He was banned and then put on probation because he did break the rules.

9. No intentional attempts to bypass board mechanisms. This includes intentionally working around the board profanity filter (if active) or working around bans. Attempts to do so may result in bans or an extension of existing bans.

Starting a new thread in reference to a locked thread in order to continue a discussion deemed closed is a work-around of a board mechanism. The original ban was overturned because Moon is a long-time member and because we didn't want him to be unable to have his say. You were all saying we should be lenient toward Moon because he is such an integral part of the community - we already had been. We couldn't let a pretty flagrant rules violation go completely unchecked, however.

This is not to say we don't want to hear feedback!! In this sort of case, PM the mod who locked the thread. If that goes unanswered, feel free to PM another staff member.

Because we recognized you guys wanted to talk about what was happening, we opened another thread and invited you all to state your piece. That is hardly suggestive of mods who are silencing members. In fact, we are doing exactly what you asked: hearing you out. But instead of talking when you have our attention, it seems some of you don't actually want to, but rather just leave. Color me confused. We've done pretty much everything you've asked, and yet you are still angry.

I'm merely saying what many have told me. I for one found the closure of Cheese's thread uncalled for.
I can understand the closure of Moon's thread. However, it was two times members of the community tried to voice their opinion. It wasn't until someone from the administration made a thread that discussion of this issue was allowed it seemed.
Now this is what it seems, I'm not saying thats the case. Regardless, many of those who have left felt that way.

However, the reason why I'm angry is because I'm seeing this community die in front of my eyes. I for one appreciate what you guys are trying to do.
However, what meant as a gesture to liven this place up, is actually starting to become the catalyst to its death.
I can understand the frustration Andraste. Although I'm not apart of the administration, I for one do not wish for this place to go down.
Andraste, we've both been apart of this particular community since 2004. I'm sure we've seen this forum have its ups and downs, but I've never experienced anything like this before.
Just the very act of you responding is at least a positive sign that there are those willing to communicate.
However, I'm afraid that many of the people from the Warcry community have already made the decision to leave. And its frustrating to know that there's really nothing I can do to change that.

This is probably the only reason why I'm still posting here, is so that somebody might be lurking and is willing to give this community another shot.

leecho7:
However, I'm afraid that many of the people from the Warcry community have already made the decision to leave. And its frustrating to know that there's really nothing I can do to change that.

This is probably the only reason why I'm still posting here, is so that somebody might be lurking and is willing to give this community another shot.

I'm frustrated, yet hopeful, as well, Leech. I also feel like I did everything I could do in this situation, too, but it just doesn't seem to matter. :-/

Weird combo of feelings, that.

leecho7:
What made many people leave was how the people who wanted to voice their opinion on the matter, were quickly silenced for unjustified reasons. Mr.Cheese tried to voice his opinion on the current state of Warcry and tried to start up a conversation about it, and the thread was closed because someone thought it was trolling.

Here is the part of his post that caused the infraction:

mrcheese:
how long do we think it'll take them to dredge up threads from years ago just to inflate their own epeens?

Though some might consider it a "flame", it wasn't directed at a specific person, and since it was in the form of a question, I do consider it "trolling". While his intention was to promote some people to post their opinions, it was done in a way that would have caused flaming, had any fan of the Escapist viewed the post.

My two cents: this could've been handled better.

*whistles* Wow. WarCry is certainly going to go the way of the dinosaur. I've been a member here for over 4 years and much like some of the other Veteran members; MoonPenguin, Greever, Chi, Guitar, MrCheese and Leecho - to name a few we came here to discuss well, everything. Seeing as the Off-Topic forum was the 'only' forum with anything of value to discuss (also because none of the other threads seem to have any activity to speak of) as almost if not all of us have stopped playing Lineage 2 for sometime now.

Being a Veteran member of the forum and sporting nearly 5000 posts in my 4 years I have come and gone from this forum, whether I choose to announce my return with a new thread, resurrect another (as is my purview and priviledge as Forum Necromancer) or just start posting in an on-going post is irrelevant. What is relavent is the fact that this community had something worth looking at and I missed the people I hadnt talked too in a while. Now, having moved around the entirety of my life as the child of two active-duty (now retired) servicemembers and being one myself; change is nothing new. But, its the way things do change that affect people and I think thats not only the root but the heart of the problem and why people are leaving.

You need to look at how the community was before the Escapists started coming here and then look at it afterwords and see what transpired. When the Escapists first started coming here (I had not been presently active at the time but I got caught up real quick), the first comers were rude, post whores, badge whores, spammers - everything bad thing in the book. Now, when something like this happens it creates a mindset within the community that all members of the Escapist are like that as it occured to the community of Wacry. Thats just human nature; first impressions last a lifetime. But, as the more intelligent members of Escapist started to come over things 'loosened up a bit' but not to a degree where there still wasnt some hostility.

In the end it boils down to the way things were perceieved based on prior behavior in the beginning and how things were handled by the community staff. One thing the staff probably didnt take in account as I see it is the way we did things here on WarCry Off-topic. We used the forum as a way of venting our frustrations as well as talking about everything else. I'm guilty of it - if you dig you'll find numerous posts from myself and others where we cussed up a storm and people did there best to help us calm down. What MoonPenguin said earlier which led to his 2 Suspension's and 1 Probation is in my opinion an excessive use of force for someone expressing his opinion on the subject and is well within his rights as an american citizen to do so - you dont have to like it, but you will respect it. A warning would be sufficient for the 'e-peen' comment.

-Niceven, Post King and Forum Necromancer of Lineage 2 WarCry Off-topic (retired)

POSTING AS A WARCRY FAN NOT AS A THEMIS STAFF MEMBER:

As a quiet yet ever-present poster (outside of my 'work' posting as an editor), I hope that the community that loves WarCry returns once feelings cool down. Simply throwing in the towel without fighting for what one loves smacks of a tantrum. How can we ever hope to 'train' the n00bs in the proper way to love WarCry if there's no one here to do the work? If as some assert, the Escapist community folks here are 'farming' badges, they will leave once the mission is accomplished. Eventually it will all settle down and our community will grow and be enhanced by those who choose, that's right, CHOOSE, to stay.

All of this could have probably been handled better but it is what it is. None of us has to take their toys and run away. Let's work together to make WC a vibrant, expansive, fun place to be!

well, I am not giving up on Warcry... though I feel like there hasn't been much to comment on lately.

Amen not a whole lot to talk about here lately just news threads.
Almost tempted to create a thread just to get lurkers to post. Don't know what it would be though.

Hey...since you're a sneakypenguin, create a thread that only true WCers would understand. :)

He has had to be around a whole lot longer to do that...

Indeed, I can't say i'm that fully versed in warcry culture/whatever to do that lol.

LOL!

O gosh I'm descending into using lol in my post frequently I deserve a probation...

I can give you a certain kind of 'probe'ation... Something will definitely be probed... and there could be a lot of lol's... if you get my drift...

In all seriousness. I'm still lurking here. However, my visits to this forum are becoming less frequent.
Although I do appreciate the effort Sneakypenguin, not sure if its like trying to squeeze water out of a rock at this point.
I try to post, and respond to some of your threads... but if its just going to be you, Sneaky, responding to my posts, I'd rather we communicate through PM's,so that I don't have to fear being suspended or probed because someone finds me offensive, or trollish.

Is there anyone checking the Warhammer boards?

I let a thread go for 4 days advertising power-leveling services. I banned it. You're welcome.

No, I still don't plan to come back.

MoonPenguin:
Is there anyone checking the Warhammer boards?

I let a thread go for 4 days advertising power-leveling services. I banned it. You're welcome.

No, I still don't plan to come back.

:(

Awwww...but...not everyone should live on your poop list. :(

Boob, that was uncalled for. You're more mature than that.

Speaking as an Escapist who came over here by accident (and was surprised when my profile still worked here) and was suspended at one point for asking what the WarCry network was, I find these forums to be a horse of a different color compared to the ones back home (on the escapist). Although since that suspension I've been wary of posting here, I still lurk about from time to time popping in threads that catch my interest, reading all the posts (some months, even years old), and simply moving on. A lot of say the WC forums are dying, but they aren't. They just aren't as high paced as our forums where, if a topic is posted, in about 2 minutes it will have 2 pages of content. Granted not all of those posters post something meaningful, but that is another story for another time. To the WC users, as someone who is on the forums everyday I can tell you that a majority of Escapist users have not heard of the corner. Yes, you will still get the occasional badge farmer looking to get their vagabond badge, and those should be reported. To the mods, I think a way we can avoid having badge farmers come here too often would be if people knew about the other Themis boards (like the Harry Potter one for example). Maybe that way they'll post in a forum they actually care about and keep coming back because it has content that interests them. I hope this issue can be resolved soon and people will return to this board.
-Penguin out.
EDIT: I apologize for the mini wall of text, I had a lot to say.

Ok, i use the escapist, but i didnt know there was a whole new forum over here. That corner thing doesnt seem too do this forum justice.

I know there is hostility between the two communities but if they found a way too combine the two forums i really think it could make us stronger as a community.

I will admit there are forums on the escapist that are...well...pointless, But obviously by the numbers of members of course the number of repeat threads are going too grow.

i would like to personally offer a hand of peace too the escapist forums if you would like to give us a hand increasing the quality of posts.

And upon seeing the topics on these forums - it certainly not the last time your going too here from me. :)