So I've been reviewing BioWare recently, and it strikes me that for such an epic AAA studio they do not have many games.

What also strikes me is that they have been re-skinning the same game and effectively offering it up over and over and over (Knights of the Old Republic was more that strikingly similar to mass effect)

Now, this is a bit of a personal opinion and debatable but I am curious about their new MMO offering in the Old Republic.

Ignoring the fact that this is not the greatest time for entering into the MMO game, I wonder if The Old Republic will offer enough variation from the established BioWare norm and the WoW dominate MMO world to really set itself apart.

The new free to play model they are proposing intrigues me, I think there is a spot for that in the market, but I'm not sure it is enough.

I think it's a shame they are wasting time making an MMO when they could be making KOTOR 3 or Mass Effect 2 (well they are making ME2, but they could make if faster if their time wasn't split). Or even create a new and original IP...

I would rather have another single player KOTOR to be honest.

I wouldnt I for one am looking forward to SWTOR.

And KOTOR 1 and 2 wre nothing lke NWN the perspective was entirely different the combat was nothing like each other

I think the whole draw of KoTOR is the single player/story aspect. Making it an MMO kinda loses that idea, so I don't think it will be as good as the other 2.

I'm going to check the MMO out when it is released, but I won't have any hopes for it.
KoTOR 1 and 2 had great stories, Yet trying to do that in an MMO is risky and experience teaches us that it won't actually work.
If the strong story continues then I will be happy, if not, then I expected it.

mrcheese:

NeoWolf73:

And KOTOR 1 and 2 wre nothing lke NWN the perspective was entirely different the combat was nothing like each other

So they changed the camera position and simplified the combat - underneath it's the Neverwinter Nights engine.

All they did in KOTOR is remove all the extraneous text from the combat log (the rolls, the calculations, etc) to turn it into a more user friendly combat system. It's still doing all the rolls and calculations NWN did, it's just hiding them.

In short, the combat was identical.

No it wasnt identical at all.. beyond the simple aspect of highlight and enemy and click which practically EVERY game has... so are ALL games identical following your logic?

And I hate to break it to you but every game that has combat has calculations going behind the scenes whether they call them rolls or not..

Its obvious your not a fan of either the games or the company, but just harping on in an ill conceived fashion with an argument that is baseless and barren of any tangible facts.. is kind of pointless.

If you just didnt like the games, then thats fine your entitled to your opinion, I dont share it but hey such is life, but dont state things about them that simply isnt true.

I thought Bioware was going to try to actually have a story in this MMO? It might not work well, but it might be a shining example of what a great MMO could be.

There is a huge difference between Based on and Same as... combat in KOTOR played nothing like NWN, yes you are correct that NWN had some basis in a D&D style setup though anyone like myself who has played Dungeons and Dragon games for over 28 years upto and including the current 4th edition, will tell you there were enough differences between the PnP rules and NWN to make it a similarity to D&D only.. but KOTOR did not use the same combat as NWN, sure the class structures at their basest form was similar but that is all..

Like I said there is a huge leap between based on and the same as...

Just because two games have similar engines at the heart of them whether one is based on the other or not does not garuntee they work the same, the very fact it was based on implies they needed it to be different in some ways and graphical changes ar not enough to justify it being named as a different engine just because that is all the mention in the staement is a heck of a leap to assume that is all that was different.

Oh and NWN wasnt turn based.. it was real time with the option to pause (except in multiplayer). I would have loved if it was as I am huge fan of turn based games..but it wasnt. both games DID have that in common though :)

They claim the combat is real time, but in reality you get one move per combat turn (each turn lasting around 2 seconds) if no move is queued, you auto attack. That sounds mighty turn based to me. Interestingly, have you noticed a similarity between this and the KOTOR combat system - note especially the second of the previous 2 quoted pieces.

In all honesty I can say I never noticed that it defaults to an autoattack.. usually too busy clicking stuff.

and no im not making things up, nothing I stated was untrue,also you say they are the SAME engine, yet the quote you posted blatantly states based of, which is what I stated.. so who is making things up.. heck ill even post it for you again with it highlighted..

The engine was first used by BioWare to produce the critically acclaimed Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic released on November 19, 2003. The engine was later licensed to Obsidian Entertainment to develop the sequel, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords first released December 6, 2004. The engine was based on the Aurora Engine (the one used in Neverwinter Nights) and added 3D backgrounds and character facial motions.

And yet still you read based on as same as... interesting considering it doesn't say that at all. There are also likely quite a few differences between the original erngine and the one based off it that go beyond the two specific change examples they mention.

But hey I guess you'll tell me the difference in terms is "semantics" next? lol or maybe again qstate was you said was proof even when you misquoted it and made an assumption based on no facts whatsoever? Oh Oh no wait.. I must be making things up again? Which is it? lol as your losing credability every time you contradict yourself and attack me by claiming im making things up when indeed all ive done is disagree with you and point out the flaw in your own reply to support yourself.

Must be nice to live in your little world where your right, everyone else is wrong, the only right opinion is yours and your allowed to misquote and accuse of making things up anyone who disagrees with you.

Sketchy:
I think the whole draw of KoTOR is the single player/story aspect. Making it an MMO kinda loses that idea, so I don't think it will be as good as the other 2.

Agreed,

I could have cried when they anounced it as an MMO.

mrcheese:

Try reading posts here. The Odyssey engine is not BASED on the Aurora engine, it IS the aurora engine with a few hefty tweaks. That does NOT make them different engines. A NEW or DIFFERENT engine is one built from the ground up.

read your won cut and Paste yourself I just posted it for you it doesnt say that AT ALL, it says based on... based on is not the same as.. fairly simple fact to follow I would have thought?

Anyway you're veering way off topic here. Let's get back to the combat - do you or do you not have proof that they're different combat engines? I've posted proof they're the same, you're yet to post anything to prove they're different.

you made a statement I disagreed with, you tried in vain to support it, and when you couldn;t argue you the point you request proof... the proof is I have played both games and did not find the systems the same, which is why I refuted your comment stating that in the first place.

And your so called proof, proves nothing as you apparently cant understand what you post yourself based on = same... NOT.

Forgive me if i'm mistaken but you're the one arguing semantics here.

You claim a term means something it doesnt in order to support you argument, when the term doesnt thereby disproving your argument and im arguing semantics? interesting logic..

So to make it perfectly clear for you - show us proof that the combat systems are different.

the proof is I have played both and did not find them the same... I would urge anyone who hasnt to do so and state for themselves whether they think they are the same.

you think they are the same because you think they had the same engine, when blatantly they didnt they had similar engines, one based off the other to some degree... did they have other gameplay similarities yes, but that had more to do with the fact they were both based loosely on d20 licensed RPg games that had "similar2 but not the same rules, rules I am VERY familiar with in both cases. Was combat the same for both, no.. but I will concede in places there were similarities such as the auto attack you mention that I had never noticed.

But beyond that your initial statment about the games being the same as NWN (or mods as you pt it) is blatantly wrong... you might not like it, you may not even like the fact you blatantly can't argue the point across... but it doesnt make it any less the case..sorry

Is it just me or is it a little f'ed up that so many people on a frickin MMO forum are bitching that a new game is an MMO???
I for one am eccstatic that they are making a new Star Wars themed MMO (since the first one sucked and was completely mishandled), and that it is being made by people who made great one player Star Wars games.

Damn you people will bitch about anything. (so will I because I am a huge hypocrite)

mrcheese:
I'm not sure what you're finding so hard about this. You claimed the combat being the same was my opinion. I provided quotes direct from the maker of the game describing each combat system (though in the case of NWN them calling it "real time" is stretching it a little) and showing that they are basically the same system.

Oh so they're "basically" the same now not "the same".. changing our story now eh.. hmm interesting. And your quotes proved nothing and they certainly don't state what you seem to think they do.

I didn't ask for your opinion on the combat systems. I'd like some kind of hard proof to back up your claims - your own views are not proof.

Apparently I need to repeat myself.. though you could refer back to my previous response to you as I answered both of these points already *yawn*.

My proof is the fact I have direct first hand experience playing all three games you mention (KOTOR 1 and 2, and NWN) and having done so Im afraid I simply disagree with your statement the first two are basically mods of the other and your rather poor attempts to rationalise that viewpoint. And I have already explained why a few times now... Anyone who has played the game can tell for themselves the first two are different than NWN having only marginal similarities relating back to their basis in similar d20 RPG systems.

As you're struggling i'll ask again - Do you or do you not have proof (in the form of some direct quote, a video, whatever) that what you say (i.e that the combat systems are different) is true?

Dear lord...you don't really pay much attention do you Ive answered this three times now.. what would make you feel better? I could draw you a picture if you'd like? or maybe make you a pop up to make what im saying simpler? would that be sufficient proof... but seriously.. ;) the proof is in actually having played all games and I would urge anyone who doubts my side of the argument to play themselves and they can agree or not with the rhubarb youve stated. But if they do I suspect you will find on your side of the equation you will very much stand alone as you are wrong they aren't essentially mods of NWN.. using a similar not same engine and your cut and pastes to that effect prove nothing except that you claiming the engines were the same in following responses was also wrong.

At any rate I don't see this ending any time soon as you are unwilling to see you are wrong and I tire of trying to convince you.. Ill let everyone else judge for themselves whether they also agree with you that KOTOR 1 and 2 were basically mods of NWN. *chuckle* but I wouldn't hold your breath.

bloodyleach:
Is it just me or is it a little f'ed up that so many people on a frickin MMO forum are bitching that a new game is an MMO???
I for one am eccstatic that they are making a new Star Wars themed MMO (since the first one sucked and was completely mishandled), and that it is being made by people who made great one player Star Wars games.

Damn you people will bitch about anything. (so will I because I am a huge hypocrite)

I would have to agree, I too am very much looking forward to it.

quite frankly STAR WARS needs a ned MMO as SWG has definitely had its day.

mrcheese:
Actually at no point did you answer my question.

Your own opinion is not proof - it is AN OPINION. The quotes I presented are hard facts they're not opinion or conjecture, they indicate my view on this matter is in fact correct. At no point have I had to resort to "well in my opinion they're the same". I too have played both - extensively but i'm not basing my argument on that fact.

So once more, i'll even narrow it down a little here: Yes or no - do you have any proof you're right?

Indeed it is, first hand experience is no surer proof of your own opinion than there can be...its how we form our own opinion.. well almost all of us.. ;)

So am I to take it you did not then thing they were mods of NWN until the quotes you post (which actually don't say it, but according to you they do) said they were? That I find very amusing.

As for everything else Ill refer you previous post because im not repeating myself again

You really need to work on your debating skills, simply parroting the same points that support nothing while continually choosing to ignore the fact that you have misrepresented a so called fact you claimed in the first place.. is kind of lame.

Ill leave you to continue your tirade without me.. and would urge everyone else to do as I suggested and check them out for yourself and would ask them to state themselves whether after playing them they felt KOTOR 1 and 2 were mods of NWN as the Mister Cheese seems to think.

Well I have answered it four...no five times now.. so barring Pop Ups and Finger Puppets Im not quite sure how else to simplify it enough for you to follow...

And contrary to your own claims you have provided proof of nothing, you used a cut paste comment and then claimed it stated something it blatantly did not..thereby providing proof of nothing.

So as Ive already stated my proof is my own opinion based on my own first hand experience of all the games in question NUMEROUS times already.. I have as much proof as you do i.e my own opinion. Although as noted, unlike you I have not claimed misrepresented facts to the contrary as proof of my onw very poorly supported argument like you, instead I have urged others to try them for themselves and then let us all know whether they think the KOTORs were simply mods of NWN.. as I am assured they will not come to that conclusion lack you did (and apparently only you).

If you can't keep up cheese, then don't participate mate.

Cheese is incredibly angsty lately.

MoonPenguin:
Cheese is incredibly angsty lately.

Yea, but I find it immensely enjoyable to watch.

It is pretty damned entertaining.