Adobe's Argument With Apple Escalates

| 13 May 2010 19:52
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The confrontation between Apple and Adobe is heating up with the release of a new advertisement blitz decrying Apple's decision to cut Adobe Flash support from its mobile line.

Adobe's attack on Apple's internet policies comes as the most recent maneuver in an escalating battle between the two companies. Initially sparked by Apple's refusal to include Flash support in its products, the companies have been continuously coming to blows ever since. Apple maintains Adobe's Flash program is shoddily constructed and causes Apple products to crash, while Adobe has accused Apple of being extremely restrictive in its policies on content, an accusation they have reiterated with their new ad campaign.

In an open letter, Adobe founders John Warnock and Chuck Geschke proclaimed their dedication to open systems, accusing Apple of instead favoring the closed system approach, controlling the content its consumers could access.

The growing spat between the companies has proved divisive within the industry, while some are lauding Adobe for taking Apple to task for its policies, others see this as a desperate, passive-aggressive attempt to turn the public opinion against Apple.

Source: Digital Trends

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A heads up: I am (quite obviously, of course) a proud and happy Windows user. In fact, I use Vista and I love it.

Okay, I'll give Apple that it's their product and they can do what they want with it. Yay capitalism. Woo.

But it's my money. And if I'm going to spend money on a system to use the internet, I'm going to buy something that lets me watch all of the video content, not just the 40% Apple is so proud to claim access to.

And battery life. Hah! Apple claims that not supporting Flash increases battery life on their mobile devices. Just playing Civilization: Revolution on my Mum's iPod Touch can drain it's battery bone dry in less than five hours. They have no high ground as far as battery life goes, in my book.

I can't wait for my iPod to die so I can get a Zune. I'm so tired of having iTunes clog up my computer.

Edit: Oh, and any Mac users complaining about propaganda on Adobe's part have no moral high ground whatsoever. Mac's "I'm a Mac" ads are most often blatant lies and stereotyping. I have not seen any recent Mac ads that focus on their own systems' features rather than trash-talking Windows. Granted, I don't watch a lot of TV these days.

Aeshi:
I love how Adobe goes on about "freedom" when they're trying to force Apple to put flash on the iPhone/Pod/Pad (regardless of whatever problems that might cause)

You need to win some kind of backwards logic medal for this.

"They have the freedom to deny other people freedom! Stop being a fascist towards the fascists!"

You can't support open systems and Apple at the same time. What they're doing makes all the sense in the world from a business standpoint, but that doesn't make it the best course of action for consumers.

More than anything, I prefer not being told what to do by someone who is only interested in separating me from my money. If Apple wants me to use something other than Flash, they should develop a superior product. If they believe enabling Flash support will reduce the performance/stability/security of their platform, they are free to disseminate their views - and I should have every right to ignore them.

Yay to Android 2.2 Froyo, with full Flash capabilities. Excellent.

You make way too much sense for this thread, mambodog.

Why not just flame away with talking points and be cool like the rest of the kids?

wow... in this thread: so much uninformed retardism.

disclaimer: I use both mac OS and windows (I have a macbook pro and a hackintosh desktop). I am also an experienced flash developer (both AS2 & AS3). I prefer to use mac OS, but use windows for gaming & modding.

1. apple can do whatever the fuck they want with the iphone/ipad etc because it is *their platform*. if you don't like it, you don't have to buy it. a big part of why they are able to deliver such complete, functional products with uniformity throughout is because of their closed system and app review process.

2. adobe has not released a finished version of flash player for any phone OS. at all. (and no, flash lite doesn't count, as it can't play any modern flash content except that which is made specifically for phones). there is a beta of flash player 10.1 for android, but unless you have a droid or a nexus one, you probably won't be able to get hold of it: http://gizmodo.com/5480985/why-most-current-android-phones-will-never-get-flash-101

3. if anyone is having trouble understanding why apple is unwilling to let flash on to the iphone, consider the mac OS version of the flash plugin. it is responsible for most browser crashes on mac OS, and has significantly worse performance on mac OS than on windows. I'm very familiar with this, because like I said, I am a flash developer. I have also spent a lot of time using adobe's creative suite (mainly photoshop, flash, premiere and illustrator) on both mac OS and windows, and its pretty clear that, while their software is bloated on both platforms, the mac OS ports are much worse. anyway, given the inefficiency of their mac efforts, its not surprising that apple isn't going to let them on to their mobile devices, whose battery life is heavily dependent on the efficiency of the code running on them.

Rainforce:

danpascooch:

Rainforce:

danpascooch:

Rainforce:

danpascooch:

Rainforce:
I think adobe in it's monopoly position is no one to talk...this could get interesting.

EDIT: the adcampaign against apple is quite disturbing....damn propaganda

It's monopoly position? Adobe has no monopoly, they simply have a better product so they are the most successful, that's how the market is SUPPOSED TO WORK! You're basically saying that Adobe is so good that it is in no position to accuse anyone else, that makes no sense.

Apple on the other hand, instead of trying to make a better product per the rules of the market, is trying to make it's competition irrelevant by blocking it out, which is anti-competitive, and in my opinion (though we have to see what the courts say) illegal.

whatever you're saying.... perspective I guess XD
"Adobe has no monopoly, they simply have a better product"
but dont let me start the whole monopoly discussion *rolls eyes*

How about you explain why what I just said was wrong, instead of just rudely shrugging it off, if my position is as crazy as you seem to think, then you should have no problem explaining why it's crazy instead of just being an absolute asshole.

as i said, its a question of perspective (thats what a forum is for). I dont want to rant around just to explain my point, as I never said anything along the lines that everyone in this thread is crazy or whatnot because everyone votes against apple and for adobe. just leave it at that.
It is possible that I will type some facts together to prove my point and pm it to you, but even then it's all up to interpret the priority/importance of each fact. I'm just not in the right mood for now.

So you claim you have facts, but don't want to post them because you fear causing a rant and so instead you do something much more rude and insult me? I love how you say you would PM facts to me to backup your position. Lol, the lack of logic here is unbelievable, posting your opinion and facts to back it up are what is SUPPOSED to be posted, and unfounded insults are the things to be not posted, or at the most, PMed, you're backwards.

Did you hit your head?

why are you trying so hard to insult me and take everything apart what I say? if you just want to be against everything poeple say that not equals your oppinion its not my fault. I will not answer this anymore.
EDIT: also, just look at the Wiki articles about adobe systems. the german one even claims the critique of a monopoly. alternativly google "adobe critique" or whatnot.

Dude, you're the one who presented no evidence, yet rolled your eyes and made fun of me.

If you're going to insult me, the least you could do is present some evidence to show I'm the idiot you claimed me to be.

Don't act the part of the victim here, you were the one who started the hostilities unprovoked, and with no evidence whatsoever to back it up.

Oh, this is an argument over which people buy what product and who gets paid.
.
.
.
I stopped caring.

Aeshi:
I love how Adobe goes on about "freedom" when they're trying to force Apple to put flash on the iPhone/Pod/Pad (regardless of whatever problems that might cause)

But enough of that.Let's mindlessly flame Apple for the horrible crime of being a BUSINESS trying to MAKE MONEY

It's not a binary choice, and yet you're trying to make it one. It doesn't even make sense. "Oh these people are mad that Apple is making a closed system on notoriously unreliable hardware and not allowing Flash on their iPhones/iPads even though phones running on Android can run Flash no problem. CLEARLY THESE PEOPLE HATE CAPITALISM." Yeah, no.

Furthermore it was already well-known the iPhone could run Flash CS5 (or more correctly, Flash CS5 could be used to develop iPhone apps) and Apple had to patch their systems to remove the choice that could've been offered to Flash developers to easily develop for the iPhone. So please explain how it is that to you, Apple is the one advocating "freedom" here.

danpascooch:

Rainforce:

danpascooch:

Rainforce:

danpascooch:

Rainforce:
I think adobe in it's monopoly position is no one to talk...this could get interesting.

EDIT: the adcampaign against apple is quite disturbing....damn propaganda

It's monopoly position? Adobe has no monopoly, they simply have a better product so they are the most successful, that's how the market is SUPPOSED TO WORK! You're basically saying that Adobe is so good that it is in no position to accuse anyone else, that makes no sense.

Apple on the other hand, instead of trying to make a better product per the rules of the market, is trying to make it's competition irrelevant by blocking it out, which is anti-competitive, and in my opinion (though we have to see what the courts say) illegal.

whatever you're saying.... perspective I guess XD
"Adobe has no monopoly, they simply have a better product"
but dont let me start the whole monopoly discussion *rolls eyes*

How about you explain why what I just said was wrong, instead of just rudely shrugging it off, if my position is as crazy as you seem to think, then you should have no problem explaining why it's crazy instead of just being an absolute asshole.

as i said, its a question of perspective (thats what a forum is for). I dont want to rant around just to explain my point, as I never said anything along the lines that everyone in this thread is crazy or whatnot because everyone votes against apple and for adobe. just leave it at that.
It is possible that I will type some facts together to prove my point and pm it to you, but even then it's all up to interpret the priority/importance of each fact. I'm just not in the right mood for now.

So you claim you have facts, but don't want to post them because you fear causing a rant and so instead you do something much more rude and insult me? I love how you say you would PM facts to me to backup your position. Lol, the lack of logic here is unbelievable, posting your opinion and facts to back it up are what is SUPPOSED to be posted, and unfounded insults are the things to be not posted, or at the most, PMed, you're backwards.

Did you hit your head?

why are you trying so hard to insult me and take everything apart what I say? if you just want to be against everything poeple say that not equals your oppinion its not my fault. I will not answer this anymore.
EDIT: also, just look at the Wiki articles about adobe systems. the german one even claims the critique of a monopoly. alternativly google "adobe critique" or whatnot.

Rainforce:

danpascooch:

Rainforce:

danpascooch:

Rainforce:
I think adobe in it's monopoly position is no one to talk...this could get interesting.

EDIT: the adcampaign against apple is quite disturbing....damn propaganda

It's monopoly position? Adobe has no monopoly, they simply have a better product so they are the most successful, that's how the market is SUPPOSED TO WORK! You're basically saying that Adobe is so good that it is in no position to accuse anyone else, that makes no sense.

Apple on the other hand, instead of trying to make a better product per the rules of the market, is trying to make it's competition irrelevant by blocking it out, which is anti-competitive, and in my opinion (though we have to see what the courts say) illegal.

whatever you're saying.... perspective I guess XD
"Adobe has no monopoly, they simply have a better product"
but dont let me start the whole monopoly discussion *rolls eyes*

How about you explain why what I just said was wrong, instead of just rudely shrugging it off, if my position is as crazy as you seem to think, then you should have no problem explaining why it's crazy instead of just being an absolute asshole.

as i said, its a question of perspective (thats what a forum is for). I dont want to rant around just to explain my point, as I never said anything along the lines that everyone in this thread is crazy or whatnot because everyone votes against apple and for adobe. just leave it at that.
It is possible that I will type some facts together to prove my point and pm it to you, but even then it's all up to interpret the priority/importance of each fact. I'm just not in the right mood for now.

So you claim you have facts, but don't want to post them because you fear causing a rant and so instead you do something much more rude and insult me? I love how you say you would PM facts to me to backup your position. Lol, the lack of logic here is unbelievable, posting your opinion and facts to back it up are what is SUPPOSED to be posted, and unfounded insults are the things to be not posted, or at the most, PMed, you're backwards.

Did you hit your head?

danpascooch:

Rainforce:

danpascooch:

Rainforce:
I think adobe in it's monopoly position is no one to talk...this could get interesting.

EDIT: the adcampaign against apple is quite disturbing....damn propaganda

It's monopoly position? Adobe has no monopoly, they simply have a better product so they are the most successful, that's how the market is SUPPOSED TO WORK! You're basically saying that Adobe is so good that it is in no position to accuse anyone else, that makes no sense.

Apple on the other hand, instead of trying to make a better product per the rules of the market, is trying to make it's competition irrelevant by blocking it out, which is anti-competitive, and in my opinion (though we have to see what the courts say) illegal.

whatever you're saying.... perspective I guess XD
"Adobe has no monopoly, they simply have a better product"
but dont let me start the whole monopoly discussion *rolls eyes*

How about you explain why what I just said was wrong, instead of just rudely shrugging it off, if my position is as crazy as you seem to think, then you should have no problem explaining why it's crazy instead of just being an absolute asshole.

as i said, its a question of perspective (thats what a forum is for). I dont want to rant around just to explain my point, as I never said anything along the lines that everyone in this thread is crazy or whatnot because everyone votes against apple and for adobe. just leave it at that.
It is possible that I will type some facts together to prove my point and pm it to you, but even then it's all up to interpret the priority/importance of each fact. I'm just not in the right mood for now.

Well the macbook's a laptop so it's always going to be shit.Not even Apple can change that

Austin MacKenzie:
Apple maintains Adobe's Flash program is shoddily constructed and causes Apple products to crash

After robbing my brothers macbook for a week and owning an Ipod Touch for almost a year I'm more inclined to believe that Apples shoddily constructed products tend to crash when it tries to run flash.

I love how Adobe goes on about "freedom" when they're trying to force Apple to put flash on the iPhone/Pod/Pad (regardless of whatever problems that might cause)

But enough of that.Let's mindlessly flame Apple for the horrible crime of being a BUSINESS trying to MAKE MONEY

Rainforce:

danpascooch:

Rainforce:
I think adobe in it's monopoly position is no one to talk...this could get interesting.

EDIT: the adcampaign against apple is quite disturbing....damn propaganda

It's monopoly position? Adobe has no monopoly, they simply have a better product so they are the most successful, that's how the market is SUPPOSED TO WORK! You're basically saying that Adobe is so good that it is in no position to accuse anyone else, that makes no sense.

Apple on the other hand, instead of trying to make a better product per the rules of the market, is trying to make it's competition irrelevant by blocking it out, which is anti-competitive, and in my opinion (though we have to see what the courts say) illegal.

whatever you're saying.... perspective I guess XD
"Adobe has no monopoly, they simply have a better product"
but dont let me start the whole monopoly discussion *rolls eyes*

How about you explain why what I just said was wrong, instead of just rudely shrugging it off, if my position is as crazy as you seem to think, then you should have no problem explaining why it's crazy instead of just being an absolute asshole.

Just another reason to buy an Android phone over an Iphone. It's going to be interesting to see how well the Android phones will handle flash. I believe the next firmware version (2.2/Froyo) will have flash support. I know I absolutely love my Moto Droid and can't wait for it to get flash support here in a month or two.

danpascooch:

Rainforce:
I think adobe in it's monopoly position is no one to talk...this could get interesting.

EDIT: the adcampaign against apple is quite disturbing....damn propaganda

It's monopoly position? Adobe has no monopoly, they simply have a better product so they are the most successful, that's how the market is SUPPOSED TO WORK! You're basically saying that Adobe is so good that it is in no position to accuse anyone else, that makes no sense.

Apple on the other hand, instead of trying to make a better product per the rules of the market, is trying to make it's competition irrelevant by blocking it out, which is anti-competitive, and in my opinion (though we have to see what the courts say) illegal.

whatever you're saying.... perspective I guess XD
"Adobe has no monopoly, they simply have a better product"
but dont let me start the whole monopoly discussion *rolls eyes*

Cryo84R:
It's painfully obvious who in this thread knows what they are talking about and what's going on, and those who spew anti-apple talking points from the internet they read that one time they were bored.

Flash is terrible, and currently NO phone can run it well, if at all. The sooner we embrace open web standards, the better.

Straying Bullet:
If anyone read Steve Jobs letter regarding why they don't use Flash anymore, you will realize they worked close together in the beginning era when computers were becoming something of a mainstay.

I find Adobe's security shoddy and fucked up. I don't like it really and I can't blame Apple for it. I am using an Iphone, the drawback is that I cannot sign in on my College intranet. For the rest, Apps and games work just fine.

A million times, this.

Now, asking someone to be informed about something may be like asking the rain not to be wet, but at LEAST read one side of the story.
http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/

It's amazing, Steve Jobs can't open his mouth without lying about his products. "There are more games and entertainment titles available for iPhone, iPod and iPad than for any other platform in the world." It seems his turtleneck has magical powers that prevent him from noticing PCs when they are inconvenient for his message. Reading that article is amazing though because between coming out with legitimate criticisms of Flash and lies about his concern for user experience he somehow manages to convince people like you that not supporting Flash is good for the consumer. Apple could still do everything they are doing for their developers (see his 'long and tedious sixth reason') AND support Flash. But then, as usual, Jobs is doing a good job of selling a lack of functionality as a feature.

Tenmar:
Hehe yeah. I saw that on the back of the business section of the L.A. Times. That was good.

Let me actually add here that pushing for HTML 5 is good because it does make things more open to users that wish to create. However Apple is essentially trying to block something that has been part of the gold standard of the internet and the motive is to get more people to program for apple and apple applications over adobe.

Now adobe isn't the good guy here either as this is a tongue in cheek fight here because adobe is also a stickler with the actual cost of entry for people to have access to create flash programs and the same applies to video editing, audio editing, web design and so much more that they are just as much a stickler as apple.

This is what confuses me. I thought that XHTML was replacing HTML by combining it and XML. So what is HTML5?

I have just finished a web design corse so I have some knowlege in web design, but we really focused on XHTML and how it was better than HTML.

(Text book: Web Development & Design Foundations with XHTML)

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