Star Wars Galaxies: Episode II: The return of HanseSOE

Puertoriqueno I was wondering if you could comment on my suggestions in this thread...Even if it is to say no way. I would just like to know if I should continue my effort or let it go.

I see Light Jedi as tanks....incredible healing ability, damage absorbtion and ability to confuse others/use the force as a blunt weapon. They dont do as much damage as other jedi, but they can take a rediculous amount of punishment. They would not have offensive buffs....defensive buffs would be thier credo. So, light jedi...

Force Wall (slightly stronger force push line, knockdown animatic). Similar to force lightning line in Sith, no Lightning animatic, no area attack at the end.

Force Confuse (area confuse/remove aggro, confused animatic). Mobs break aggro for a determined number of seconds after the special is fired.

Force Calm (area heal). Increases in strength as it goes up the tree. Max strength is 500 heal.

Meditation (adds extra health to single/group). Can do it by buffing constitution. Keep the highest level around 400 additional health.

Innate saber block (based on level purchased in skill set), up to 80 percent absorb/20 percent reflection. Can be like current buff, just gets to last longer with each upgrade, and each tick up in power makes it work better if you wish.

Force focus (heal over time buff for self), top level adds a tick of 50 health every 5 seconds. Not alot, but any bonus is a good one. Stat buff options that concentrate on defensive stats or constitution.

I see Dark Jedi as damage-dealers, dishing out massive damage in furious attacks. All of the Sith abilities are based on creating damage or suffering, all to gain power and victory over thier victims for the glory of the Dark Side. The weak shall perish at the hands of a dark lord as follows......

Force Lightning (much stronger force push line, lightning animatic). Final force lightning attack becomes an area attack. Make the animation fire right away, treating it like fire from a weapon. You could simple speed up the animation to accomplish this.

Force Choke (much stronger force strike, choking animatic), single mob strike (no area attack) and you root when doing it, very strong, lifts mob off the ground as the mob grabs his neck. Sound in the background is the standard force choke rumble....and of course the mob choking sound.

Dark Power (area action recharge). This is like force calm, but heals action instead of health.

Fury (damage buff....adds extra action to single/group). Same as Meditation, but again it focuses on action instead.

Innate saber reflect (based on level purchased in skill set) up to 80 percent reflect/20 percent blocked. Can be like current buff, just gets to last longer with each upgrade, and each tick up in power makes it work better if you wish.

Force Rage (action over time buff for self), top level adds a tick of 50 action every 5 seconds. Not alot, but any bonus is a good one.

The base skills (the ones there now) would be changed as follows...

Saber strike (single), current specials. No changes in this line by name or icon. This is a standard jedi attack.

Saber strike (area), current specials. No changes in this line by name or icon. This is a standard jedi attack.

Force persuade (replaces confuse), current progression, different icon. Otherwise it has the same effects.

Force blow (replaces lighting), current progression, different icon. Otherwise it has the same effects, but the lightning animatic is removed.

Force strike (replaces choke), different icon. No animatic exists for this one, so it is fine how it is.

Saber throw (ranged spinning saber attack), same icon. Base the damage on the saber, however, if possible. If not, increase the damage output of this special.

Force heal (one time heal), same icon, same stats as now. No changes in this line.

All of the general force power items offered in the skill set remain the same...but you would add

Innate armor (based on level purchased in skill set), up to 7000. Should use the levels (weak, lucent, etc) that are already present in robes.

Innate armor does not give jedi an edge over other characters, since no character has to deal with decay anyway. It just keeps jedi in character for Star Wars. Also note, using Innate armor (choosing it) removes the ability to wear current jedi armor (robes and such) or just overrides it, rendering it useless unless it has stat boosts.

What you are doing here is adding the force protection levels that are listed on robes to the toon directly. This would be percieved as a huge gift to the jedi, allowing them to wear any clothing they wish, for a custom look to thier toon, without adding imbalance.

Note that choosing a path replaces your current generic force attacks with the dark or light ones chosen. This is important to retain balance. Treat the prior line of specials like a weapon requires them and is not equipped, so they all get Xs on them. Now, the jedi choosing the new line has to replace his old generic attacks and buffs with the new ones. It gives the jedi a choice.

Note that, if you choose a path, say dark jedi for instance, before you begin to choose expertise items, the path opposite to your chosin path will cost double in skill points. Light side jedi, in my opinion, should not get to use dark side skills in full, and visa versa. I think there needs to be the option of choice, as some light jedi are more "good" than others, and same goes for dark, but there has to be a limit. The skills you choose show what kind of jedi you are....there should be a small limitation on hybrids. Just dont be rediculous about it, since this is about customizing a character and choice.

You will have to reduce some of the effects of the expertise items to avoid creating imbalance, but this can be done and still reach the same exact numbers in the end you have now. The intent here is clear. Log in a toon, no skill points are spent, all the default attacks are the same, they are just named differently, perhaps different animatics. Then you can take your skill points and spend them as you wish....early on, if you choose a line to replace a current default line, you will have to spend additional expertise points to get the next skill. Players that wait will get a working default attack when they level up instead.

By the very nature of the line, light jedi will get to spend more in the area of innate armor then dark jedi.....so they will have better natural protection against damage. Dark jedi attacks are less expensive, however, so they can choose more attack-oriented specials, and thier attacks are stronger than light jedi. This gives a reason to choose light or dark, and adds some cool animations.

The final move for all jedi would be to return to the original animations. They were extremely eye pleasing. Animations do not have to be tied specifically to strikes....hits and damage would remain as they are now, but the original attack animations for jedi are much better than the current ones. Remove the connection to strikes, and just let the animations play on thier own, only based on attack status.

Thats it for now, more changes to follow as this gets tweaked....if SOE is open to the suggestion, a specific system will be done with icons and all. We can do this guys.......please use the above format to post your suggestion, feel free to add any changes you see fit.

If you go about this the way I have listed, and others are suggesting as well, you create a true choice. Your original intent was to offer simplicity to the player that wants it. Removing default attacks, or spending skill points in a forced manner does not do this...you force a player to participate in this system even if they do not desire to. This is a complicated system, and it should remain optional for those that desire to use it....the current system needs to remain in place to cater to simple game players that do not wish to have this kind of complexity. This is how it should have been done from the very beginning.

No change should ever be forced if that can be avoided. It should always be presented as a true option instead.

I also feel that items like innate armor protection or saber block would be recieved well even if you have to move it to the tree. After all, saber block as it exists not is a short action item, but innate saber block would be a boon....but would be much less powerful at the lower levels. Only the highest toons would have the best block, and it would be expensive to have the best one. This makes more sense, and it is a true gift, avoiding imbalance, and should be an approved removal.

HanseSOE Whew! You put a lot of effort into these ideas. I've read through them and I agree on most of your points. Light Jedi should have more protection abilities and Dark should be more aggressive. You'll notice that's how the Path trees are set up. Although, I've understood that Light Jedi had a stronger martial arts training than Dark Jedi (I'm sure the Sith had universities) and have a masterful understanding of sabers (from movies, books, and other lore I've seen).

DocMirrim For saberthrow to be viable it needs a very very fast cooldown timer...like NONE. I never EVER use it now. Its all but worthless. How about showing us something that will make us think, for one instant, that some devs actually have played a jedi on live (other than on company sponsored play times, where you are just "phoning it in") and have any clue as to what the player base would like to see done WITH OUR MONEY. We are tired of funding a nevever ending beta that keeps changing for the worse.

HanseSOESaber Throw is already on a faster cooldown, with the new system. It also does weapon damage. It's much more useful than what you're using now.

Diamond621 Hanse - I sent you a private message you should definitely take a look at, and now that you're back with us for this discussion id like to reiterate some points I made earlier in the week about this system. If I could possibly get a heads up from you that my ideas are at least understood and possibly considered, it would be appreciated. I expect everyone else to simply flame the hell out of them, since it isn't what they want to hear right now. Any comments you could make on any of my thoughts would be a welcome relief from the utter lack of communication we've seen from anyone but you on this topic. The original query put to me was if I understood why Jedi were upset with this expertise system. This is a long one, but bear with me.

HanseSOE I'm not currently able to answer private messages, due to being so outnumbered. I have until Monday to finish up the tree, so I'm not able to do much more than implement and test what is listed, so far (I reiterate, everything is subject to change).

Diamond621 I DO know why Jedi are upset, but I am not entirely sure they understand the best way to fix it. 3 things they are upset about, in what I believe to be a ranking by level of anger, and my 3 simple and logical replies to them:

1) The Developers have repeatedly said that the Expertise system for Jedi would involve choosing new skills for your character, not 'buying back' the ones you currently have. It would now appear as though that has panned out as false, and many Jedi are upset and feeling lied to or deceived in some way, shape or form.

HanseSOE I do not have this information. Most likely, those statements were made prior to my joining the team. I was given instructions to work on the trees and NOT add new abilities. I reviewed all the assets of Jedi and found them doing (DPS-wise) more damage than all the other professions (although, in reality, my simulated damage is reduced because they are not ranged). They have more abilities than any other profession, due to their already getting an abilities publish.

You have a right to be upset. Anyone who is attached to any profession that doesn't get a lot of new content has a right to be upset. Jedi aren't getting as much new content as other professions because they already have the new content.

Diamond621 2) Jedi are currently nearly an alpha class, requiring superor numbers and strategy to take down (particularly elders with their robes, standard issue Old Republic Hilts, and standard issue Lava Crystals) in mine and many others' opinions (For those of you unfamiliar with the term, an alpha class is one that has abilities and statistics that are FAR, FAR above those of the other 'lesser' classes. A prime example would be how Jedi was handled pre-CU, or for a modern example - how they are now in my humble opinion). However it is well known that the principle fear of all those who have power is to lose that power. Jedi simply don't want to be taken down from their position as one of the best classes in the game right now, or any time ever for that matter, and are upset that their superiority is threatened. It is a natural reaction to the threat of one's power being taken from them.

HanseSOE The Jedi's damage abilities should be on par with Bounty Hunters, in this publish. DPS at the top end for either profession (min/max point spending) is around 2200-2300. The playstyles differ, though.

Diamond6213) Jedi are upset that since their profession and that of the Bounty Hunters will be the first two ones to have expertise implemented, that they will be SEVERELY weakened and lose dominance to the other combat classes while they have theirs implemented. This relates slightly to #2, but is disparate enough to warrant its own point.

HanseSOE Yes, but please be patient. It is a temporary phase.

Wewa Looking very good! good job devs!

General question about expertise trees.

Will you in future when this whole expertise system kicks in focus on fine tuning system or are you planing something revolutionary again?

HanseSOE Yes, if we find something glaringly broken/unbalanced, we'll fine tune the system. I'm not aware of anything that would overturn the systems we're implementing.

Wewa Will some of the next profesion you will work on, have more options in melee combat (maybe smugler)?

HanseSOE They should, however anything is subject to change. The abilities for professions should be brought up to par with Jedi, as they have less abilities than Jedi do now.

Wewa If you have time look my sugestion for a Brawler profesion (in signature), do you like it, could you add it to game?
- for Brawler profesion there could be 4 trees, one for each type of weapon:
- Unarmed
- Swords
- Fencer
- Pikeman

HanseSOE We're scheduled to do only existing professions. I like the idea, though!

Diamond621 Hey, at least Hanse is one of the new devs who hasn't had his soul completely blackened by prolonged contact with the whiny Jedi community...just take a look at Thunderheart or Helios! They're so damn monotonous I am not certain if they have a central nervous system anymore.

"I cannot confirm nor deny the statement of the alleged discussion which is only speculative and make no promises as to what will be given. I also cannot confirm nor deny the accuracy of this statement, which I may or may not be making in a speculative manner. ...not that I am confirming or denying this." -Helios/TH

The poor elder devs practically have to speak in tongues to cover all their bases and avoid backlash from angry children who don't want their glowsticks to lose power. Nice to see a dev with a straightforward and honest tone that hasn't been completely corrupted yet.

HanseSOE I worked on Compaq bulletin boards in the 90's. We had over 2.2 million customers complaining (in addition we had 250,000 subscribers on Ultima Online, at one time), so I've had my share of soul crushing.

Yog_Sothoth Thanks for all the posts! I have a serious question regarding the above statement. Does such constructive criticism *ever* get considered? No flames intended, but it seems like the most often seen answer to suggestions and criticism is "That is not being considered". I know you're new to the team, but to any dev, has there ever been an instance where suggestions or criticism has changed anything? (Apart from when something gets tested or even worse, pushed live and is then discovered that the post-ers were right after all...)

HanseSOE I changed Force Throw to include weapon damage and have a lower cooldown, based on feedback. I haven't tested it yet. I want to finish up implementation first and then consider changes. The goal is for you folks to have fun with the system. You have not tested the system yet, so it is extremely hard for you to make a sound decision based on the data you have been presented. If we kept making changes based on feedback, we would never finish the system for you to use. Thus, we make a hard stance to not consider some ideas.

Dakaar_Halycon Hanse,

One thing i didn't see in your responses was an explaination of the saber block proc. is that going to give a chance to cause damage back to the attacker?

HanseSOE This would require programmer time and they're fully booked for this publish.

Hawkbat5 HanseSOE

Thank you, thank you, thank you so very much for what has to be the BEST series of responses on this topic from any Dev so far. You're actually answering the questions and not dancing around them. Thank You!

1 Question. With the possibility to increase healing to 10K will the cool down timer remain the same or will it increase to reflect the increase in healing? I would propose that since this is an upgrade that was purchased and since gaining this extra 5K healing means loosing the chance to purchase other offensive abilities that the timer remain unchanged. Just in case you guys were thinking about that.

HanseSOE The cooldown timer I stated is at 25 seconds for the top-end heal regardless of how you spend your points in the tree. So, 25 seconds for 5000 and 25 seconds for 10000. This is subject to change, as we are not in testing and tweaking, yet.

jediding I keep seeing that this has to be tested and you will be pleased when you test it. What is this going to be tested against? Other professions that don't have expertise with new skills or enhancements? K so maybe it will seem great now but what happens when all of the other professions get their expertise skills?

HanseSOE Bounty Hunters should be equivalent for testing against for PvP (as long as you don't spend your points too thin; ie: spend your points with a build in mind). NPC's with ranged weapons equivalent to your level should take about ten seconds to kill.

omadnay Man, thanks a lot for answering so many questions Hans, it really is appreciated.

I just want to make one more attempt at getting some kind of comment (One way or the other) about what exactly Force Spur and Shockwave are supposed to be... as in the terms of Star Wars Reality and the moves commonly associated with Jedi...

The way I see it:

Shockwave is the perfect place to put in the traditional Force Push maneuver that Jedi execute so often! (And you've said this would be an area cone attack too... so in my opinion it really sounds fitting).
Example: Call it Shockwave or rename it Force Push: The Jedi thrusts her hand out and sends an invisible wave of energy that smashes into her opponents.

HanseSOE Force Push is associated with knock back or knock down. Neither of which are being implemented for this power. Force Shockwave IS a wave of energy that smashes into your opponents, though.

omadnay Force Spur: From what I understand... this move is being put in to give the Jedi another ranged attack. Great, lets make it the maneuver where a Jedi lifts scattered debris from the area and hurls it towards their enemy. This move existed in the older system and was named Force Throw. It is basically the traditional move where the Jedi uses telekinetic control to send other objects and debris at their opponent. Example: The Jedi motions her hands and a cloud of dust and assorted small debris flies into the air and is sent hurtling towards the enemy, dealing a small amount of damage.

HanseSOE An interesting idea, but we're adding abilities to other professions and not as many to Jedi due to their already getting new abilities in a previous publish. Thanks, though!

Surun Couldnt read 115 threads so just thought I would ask a simple question.

Once I have used my expertise points on abilities will I be able to change them in the future if im not satisified with the outcome? If so how would this be done, like respecing or at any given time?

HanseSOE You will be able to respecify your points. I haven't worked on that system, so I'm not exactly sure how it will be available.

omadnay Just to make sure you understood, I'm not suggesting adding anything new... you're already adding Force Spur... it just seems like this is what it should be (The Jedi Telekinetic attack)... if it isn't what I mentioned, what exactly will it be?

HanseSOE That was a typo on someone's part. It isn't Force Spur. It is Force Spark, which is part of the Force Lightning line that does not cost you points because it is level 7.

omadnayAnd I personally don't care if Force Push has no knockback or anything of the like... I just want to see the Jedi thrusting their hands out in combat, like Jedi should be doing... name it Shockwave, I don't care, just have the Team animate it as Force Push.

HanseSOE Good idea. I'll look for this animation in our list of animations and use it, if we have it.

TheIzeman Hanse

Any way that Jedi can get the highly loved /meditate skill back where we can go into a meditative state. Could be a requirement to be in that state for the buffs, like the old TK and Jedi used to have to do. Great for the abilities and Roleplay.

Please make our day, I promise I won't say anything bad about the game for a whole week if you do!

HanseSOE Forsake Fear is a channeled meditative state and is a new ability that we're adding.

Dinchamion Stop right there. So you basically saying you needed feedback to change an abiltiy that A) did 1 damage; B) didn't do anything - no snare, no root, nothing

Whoa. Simply, whoa.

HanseSOE Makes sense that the attack should do damage... and it was on a four second cooldown... - All subject to change, but it's definitely working as good (DPS is fine), so far, in my testing. I didn't actually need the feedback to see that the ability needed a little love, but the feedback helped.

MsNiL Are we Meditating up a bonus to our Stance, or will we have to sit meditating while the rest are fighting?

HanseSOE I'm just getting ready to code this ability today. I have finalized the statistics of the ability, but I may find quirks I need to work out... So, the following is not final.

Forsake Fear is a meditative state that a Jedi uses to regenerate 6% of maximum action per second for him/herself and his/her party for up to ten seconds (ie: 60% of everyone's action in the party is regenerated, when used). The meditative state is not interupted by damage. The meditative state IS interupted, if the Jedi performs another action.

Diamond621 If Jedi ARE permitted to move during the meditative stance, then I suggest a severe (in the 75% range perhaps) penalty to their movement speed (Avoid Incapacitation, another extremely powerful pre-CU Jedi ability that held out long past the CU even and shortly before the NGE, used a similar movement snare to prevent it being used as a 'bailout' ability).

Jedi should not, I don't believe, have the ability to, say, flip on Force Run, turn on Forsake Fear, and go for a little circular run around the battlefield a few times to regenerate 60% of their action. You really need to clarify if Jedi will be allowed to move during this period, or whether they will truly drop into a meditative and stationary pose.

HanseSOE Jedi must remain stationary to use Forsake Fear.

Diamond621 Thank you Hanse - now that that fact is established, PLEASE do not forget to add the Teras Kasi Meditation animation. It's the only right way to do an ability like this.

Now, can I get any comment on the saber block post I made earlier? Very curious why it didn't follow the conventional pattern. It's repeated below for the hell of it

Can you give any insight as to why Saber Block in its base form was not made a default ability, as is the pattern for many other Jedi abilities (i.e. Force Run's base form is default and requires no expertise, ditto Force Throw and Force Spark (which as I understand it is the proto-lightning tree, per se).

HanseSOE It's quite powerful. I felt it would be an excellent choice for Jedi to make, although I agree that it is a basic Jedi ability. We've talked about it internally and it may not be in the same form in the final version (ie: we may take it out of the tree).

Diamond621 I think a lot of the Jedi around here (not speaking as one I can't be certain) would prefer if Saber Block was a passive mod that, say, at lv 30 grew to a base and permenant 5% chance to block ranged fire, then increased by 5% every, say, 10 levels, for a total of a permenant 35% block chance at lv90, with the saber block line of expertise increasing that permenant mod cumulatively and exponentially (i.e. 1st tier is a 10% bonus, 2nd tier a 15% bonus, 3rd tier if it exists a 25% chance). A lv90 Jedi who invested in all 3 tiers would have an 85% block rate, equivelant to a master lightsaberist in the pre-CU system, but would lose very many skill points to invest in offensive trees and would be vulnerable in melee or force combat. I think most Jedi preferred Saber Block as a mod that worked 'behind the scenes' of combat, and I think this is workable within the new level system and still could be incorporated into expertise as something that could increase it. Jedi SHOULD be allowed to block 85% of ranged fire on a permenant basis IF they are willing to suffer weaknesses in other areas of combat.

Your thoughts on this, Hanse? (Translation: Is this something you are even allowed to consider?)

HanseSOE I like this idea. Combined powers of the block... Passive non-purchased, purchased improved, and then purchased reflect shot... I'll see what I can do, but I'm limited on time (Monday is the last day). Yes, I'm working over the weekend.

Diamond621 Will this ability be interrupted by movement? It doesn't seem like much of a meditative stance if you can move around while using it, even if you can't do other 'actions'. If movement does break it, then consider using the old Teras Kasi Meditation animation that is still in the TRE files (it is a variation on the sitting pose). This would fit very well with the nature of the ability (i.e. intense concentration to manipulate the Force to grant energy to him and his allies), and Jedi should in my mind NOT be able to move or act in any way while using this ability - it should be purely regenerative and support.

HanseSOE If I can find it, Teras Kasi Meditation it is. I put it in my spreadsheet notes. Thank you for looking it up for me.

xChRoNiCx I beleive the jedi animation for meditation during the cu would be much more appropriate.

HanseSOE I'll give more feedback on this, once I've completed the ability and tested it.

Last glance, this post had reached 129 pages ... Wow.