Star Wars Galaxies: Proposals for TKA

Here is all of Holocron's replies to the topic he created, proposals for TKA:
OK, let me start by saying that we are positive that these changes will need iteration, but that's also why we are posting them as proposals so you can sanity check them:

[LI]Across the board action cost reduction (Not changing knockdowns)
[LI]Improved chance of a defensive move firing (General Combat change)
[LI]Vibroknucklers
-Increasing max range on vibroknucklers to 5 meters
-Changing Health Cost from 32..59 to 18..36 (better)
-Changing Action Cost from 29..46 to 30..54 (different)
-Changing Mind Cost from 15..29 to 18..36 (different)
These values are modified to be slightly higher than the default unarmed move costs as this is a damage increasing weapon. Because the move costs are being decreased significantly, this should be a much smoother transition

I don't have a full list of cost changes, but a typical change in costs looks like this:
[LI]UnarmedHit2 went from 21/32/21 (HAM before any drain modifiers were applied) to 12/18/12

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Archon007 wrote:

I do not like the increase in ACTION & MIND COST, it's already way out of control.

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Keep in mind that the action and mind cost for the vibroknucklers should be completly outweighted by the reduction in the base special move cost. In other words, it goes down by a large percentage, then goes up by 7 points.

-Raph Koster, Creative Director

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Jedah_Fisk wrote:
Also do you mean that you refuse to change knockdown. Knockdown for a martial artist is not suppose to take half you life, not even for a defensive lineman in the NFL .

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No, we are still looking at knockdown. This isn't meant to be a comprehensive list of everything we evr intend to do...
-Raph Koster, Creative Director

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FD_Pilot wrote:
Will this mean with VK's on...we'll just get mind incapped 20% faster?
Why is this good?
What am I missing?

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No, because the base costs on the moves will be significantly lower.
-Raph Koster, Creative Director

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Archon007 wrote:
"Blasters are a superior weapon at a distance" - I don't think anyone would or could argue this fact, but puting no abilty to close that DISTANCE was foolish and disturbing.

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That's what lunge is supposed to be.
-Raph Koster, Creative Director

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vortex4 wrote:

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Holocron wrote:

OK, let me start by saying that we are positive that these changes will need iteration, but that's also why we are posting them as proposals so you can sanity check them:

Across the board action cost reduction (Not changing knockdowns)

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How much cost reduction?
The figure that I was given was 25-75% across the board. I don't have specifics and the designer has gone home for the day because it's almost 8pm here.

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Holocron wrote:

Improved chance of a defensive move firing (General Combat change)

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Please provide examples based on attacker and defender skill broken down by move and status modifier if applicable.

Same answer as above...

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Holocron wrote:

Vibroknucklers
Increasing max range on vibroknucklers to 5 meters
Changing Health Cost from 32..59 to 18..36 (better)
Changing Action Cost from 29..46 to 30..54 (different)
Changing Mind Cost from 15..29 to 18..36 (different)
These values are modified to be slightly higher than the default unarmed move costs as this is a damage increasing weapon. Because the move costs are being decreased significantly, this should be a much smoother transition.

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Health costs are less of an issue with brawlers as action, and even more so, mind, are. Increasing the cost to those pools is not an improvement to anything. It is a serious detriment.

Costs aren't decreasing as your last point states, they are increasing as your third and fourth points state. You have a fundamental disconnect in your own list.

The first reduction reduces the base cost across the board by a large amount. The way to read this is "100-50+7" so to speak.

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Holocron wrote:

Thoughts?

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I cannot see those changes providing any significant improvement. Our profession has been all but removed from the game due to the practical removal of berzerk and knockdown combined with the already very high cost of specials. Your latest proposed changes and overt stubborn, arrogant attitude are simply more insults to the Teras Kasi community.

We're not trying to be stubborn or arrogant. We're trying to offer these up for commentary. The fact that you see this proposal as stubborn or arrogant implies that one, and probably both, of the following are true:

we're wrong about the actual power of Teras Kasi Artists
you're assuming a baseline of ability for TKAs that is way too high to be balanced with the rest of the game
I am pretty sure that both will turn out to be true.

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OFFICIAL Star Wars Strategy Guide, Page 267 wrote:

Facing an opponent armed with ranged weapons, high-level abilities enable his or her to evade blaster fire and close in quickly, bringing his or her enemy swiftly to the ground.

Teras Kasi are lethal, nearly impossible to knock down or unbalance.

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Thoughts, Koster?

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That this paragraph is strategy guide hyperbole. Read literally it says "TKAs can't be killed." Uhh... I doubt that you or we want that.

I'll tell you that our take as far as TKAs go is that you have some balance issues, but overall you are overpowered, not under. Can you explain to me why that is incorrect? What are you measuring against, exactly. (Pistoleers in PvP? PvE when compared against a comparably advanced carbineer or pikeman? What, exactly, are you using as your baseline?)

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Afra_Lyon wrote:

I sorry Holo, I'm just not reassured. It seems to me that you are making more mistakes then you are solving. As TK's, we are in the thick of the battle, and as such we and all other meleers should have the lowest special move HAM cost. As it is now, especially with the 600 HAM cost for knockdown, we have the highest.

Also, why are you not extending the range of VK's to 8m, same as regular unarmed. That would be a much more effective fix for what all TK's see as a bug in the profession.

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The former, because knockdown can kill anything in the game with little risk?

The latter, I have no idea. I'll have to ask.

-Raph Koster, Creative Director

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MaknarSerak wrote:

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Holocron wrote:

That's what lunge is supposed to be.

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Supposed to be?

So can I take it from that statement that lunge is not working correctly either, or not the way you intended anyway, and is being worked on so we can close distances on ranged players?

Or is it staying as is?

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If I said "is" then I am sure you would correct me saying that it is ineffective. So I said "supposed to be." Chalk it up to my bein gunshy at this point.

My impression is that it works fine. Yes, the opponent can get back up, but in the meantime you've had a chance to do stuff to them, as with knockdown....

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Selwynn wrote:
We may not be drastically underpoweed - maybe -- but we are absolutely NOT OVERPOWERED by any stretch of the imagination. In PvP it is no contest - we're not only non overpowered, but we can hardly compete. In PvE - all I can say is, if you turn this into a game where I can't fight anything but stupid durnies to get 50 XP per kill and that's how I'm supposed to make the millions of XP it takes to be master -- then I guess I'm done here.
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OK--don't measure against PvP. If you measure against other unabalanced professions, you're going to be lacking an objective baseline.

Here's the objective baseline we use: a maxxed out TKA should be an even match (meaning, 50/50 chance of life or death) versus any of the following:

abandoned rebel private
aged lantern bird
beguiling pubam scout
blood razor pirate strong
bloodseeker mite queen
blooming jax
blushing jax
boar wolf
bolma
bordok foal
cobral assassin
competent jinda ritualist
crazed gurreck
crystal snake
dantari raider
disturbed bolma
flail executioner
general otto
gifted jinda shaman
grungy korga laborer
gurk whelp
imperial brigadier general
imperial veermok
infant graul
kai tok prowler
kliknik scout
kunga soothsayer
mantigrue night stalker
mauler lord
mawgax male
mokk herbalist
nightsister sentry
nym brawler
nym domesticated gurk
proficient jinda worker
rebel brigadier general
rebel commando
rebel specforce captain
sand beetle
sand trooper
spooky donkuwah spiritmaster
stormtrooper
stormtrooper bombardier
stormtrooper medic
stormtrooper rifleman
stormtrooper sniper
swamp trooper
swamp trooper anti gungan
torton pygmy matriarch
tortur bull
tusken bantha
tusken guard
vesp hunter
These things are worth 2600xp or so apiece.

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Symbha wrote:

Holocron,

Is every maxed out combat proffession measured against that same list? Seems to me a master anything should be 50/50 against the exact same list. I've been with solo Critter Handlers that solo Kimo's so, what gives?

Comment?

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What gives is that they are also way overpowered. That's why I keep saying "don't compare yourselves to pistoleer" (or whatever). As I mentioned in the "Open Discussion On Balancing" thread in SWG Discussion, everyone feels they are underpowered because they are comparing themselves to pistoleers. But they're missing the point that pistoleers are way OVERpowered, and so is most everyone else. If we balance everyone off of pistoleer, the game will be WAY easier, you'll run out of content in a trice, you'll say there's no high end game, etc etc. And the core of the issue isn't that there's no tough mobs, is that players are way way overpowered.

Over time, the natural progression is for this to get WORSE. In three yearsat this rate, I'd expect a rank newbie to solo kimogilas, because that's what happens in online games--players get smarter, mobs don't.

-Raph Koster, Creative Director

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DaemonMoerder wrote:

Holo, one thing you seem to be forgetting is that all the majority of these are in groups at all times. As a result we never get to have a 1v1 match because they always have friends with them.

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That is completely beside the point, though. Two gulginaws or two wrixes or three swoopers or three motts or even five pharples or swarming kreetles is supposed to be comparable, if they BAF.

Don't think in terms of encounters within the game; we're talking about baseline combat ability here.

-Raph Koster, Creative Director

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Grimror wrote:
In otherwords, what's the justification for us having such high costs?? Are you telling me you are going to be raising this cost for other overpowered classes? Reguardless telling us to not compare ourselves to other classes is just stupid because it seems you have made no effort to balance them, yet you nerf us continuously for every patch.

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Heh... go visit the rifleman forum right now, or the creature handler forum anytime, and so on, if you really think that we're singling you guys out for nerfing. We are not playing favorites. We simply cannot change everything in one day.
-Raph Koster, Creative Director